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8th Ed. Kroq-Gar: Did anyone use him?

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Discussion' started by ASSASSIN_NR_1, Feb 16, 2019.

  1. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Carnasaur

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

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    I just got curious and started wondering; Kroq-Gar seems overpriced and his two items are rather weak, did anyone ever try to use him, and if so, how did he perform?
     
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  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I never did. An tooled up Oldblood cowboy and a coldone is infinitely better.
     
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  3. Karnus
    Razordon

    Karnus Well-Known Member

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    I fielded him twice total. First time he was instantly killed by a doom diver, second time he was eaten alive by 3 skull crushers, Neither him nor mount made a scratch on them.

    bad luck? sure. worth the points? nah. totally over costed. I don't like that his mount doesn't have blood roar by default and one of his special rules revolves around the rider dying!

    Although it is the only way to field a Carnosaur with a ward save of it's own.
     
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  4. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Carnasaur

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. At least you tried to field him, just very sad that he did nothing.
    I find it sad that most of his items are quite bad in that he and grymloq does not complement each other, and the only thing going for him as you say is the ward.

    Just for fun, Grymloq is a standard carnosaur with loping stride and a slightly better bloodfrenzy, so maybe that is worth 5 points extra (maybe), making him 240 points.
    Kroq-Gar is an oldblood, so 140 points. 9 points for light armor. A 5+ ward is worth 30 points, so maybe when it also works on grymloq we could say it's worth 60 points, though since it only works as long as kroq-Gar is alive, it isn't quite two 5+ wards, so maybe 50 points. the hand of the gods is basically a fireball, so 25 points. His spear's rule is really bad against anything he wants to fight against, so I would say 20 points. The foregoing monster reaction test is quite bad and might be 5 points. This leaves him at 249 points.
    Their total is then 489 ponits, but since the sum of their rules is not worth it, I would argue that when put together their value decreases. Even then he is at least 30 points overcosted.

    How would you fix him?

    Personally I would make the hand of the gods give him an additional armor save, and possibly +1 to his ward, while making the bound spell innate.
    Then I would add armor piercing and ward piercing to the Spear.
     
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  5. Karnus
    Razordon

    Karnus Well-Known Member

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    first off:

    - change the bound spell from Shems burning gaze to something unique and more akin to the amber spear from beasts.
    - give him a 4+ ward (keep grymloq's 5+ ward) and keep them separate from each other and not tied to one another being alive.
    - keep the rule about being frenzied but I would add something beneficial to them both BEING ALIVE together, which is kinda the point right? Something like Kroq-gar using Grymloq's strength characteristic when attacking in close combat would be fitting.
    - Either give Grymloq blood roar and loping stride by default or at least make them options.

    I feel something like the above may warrant the points cost, because at the moment for 520 points you can build a pretty sick demon prince that will mop the floor with kroq-gar in his current iteration.
     
  6. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    OldBlood

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    I’d say just do anything to make the spear more Killy (I was most disappointed to see they nerfed it into oblivion) and give the Hand of the Gods a unique spell
     
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  7. airjamy
    Terradon

    airjamy Well-Known Member

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    Never tried him, but never had a reason to do so. Better ward save seems neccesary to fix him, and a decrease in points.
     
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  8. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Carnasaur

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

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    What about this then:

    - Give Grymloq Bloodroar
    - Make the 5+ ward work regardless of whether Kroq-Gar is alive
    - Change the Hand of the Gods to give Kroq-Gar +1 to his Ward save and armor save, and change bound spell to essentially still be shem's burning gaze, but have the added benefit of ignoring armor, then probably up the level to 4 and change it to be innate.
    - Replace the spears effect with armor piercing and ward piercing, while also having it so any unit that suffers a wound from it, now takes LD tests just as with fear and terror for Bloodroar.
    - Maybe give Grymloq +1 WS to reflect his status and old age.

    This does make him a lot better so he might reach 600 points. What do you think?
     
  9. livewaaaaagh
    Saurus

    livewaaaaagh Member

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    I like playing fluff battles with my group and I put assembled my Carno as Kroq Gar with the intention of fielding him one of these days. I just need to find the Lustria book, or any sort of battle he fought in. (Very familair with Dwarf lore - my main army - not so much with Lizard lore).
     
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  10. livewaaaaagh
    Saurus

    livewaaaaagh Member

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    And to further that item: Any battles for Chakax, Gor-Rok or Tetto that you guys have re-created?

    Wit my Dwarfs, I've done the Belegar vs Queek, and am planning a Belegar vs Skarsnik. Any directino you can point me towards would be appreciated.
     
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  11. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Carnasaur

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

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    I have never re-created any battles tbh. but I can see the appeal. Could be interesting to make scenarios based on that to more easily re-use them and make it easier to share them.
     
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  12. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Hmmm, his most famous battle was a battle that he fought with his few surviving spawning brothers against Daemon hordes. The most appropriate fluffy scenario would be a Magnfiicent Seven Scenario.

    Lizardmen defenders, you have to spend all of your points on Lords and Heroes.

    Daemon Attackers (or any Force of Destruction attackers in a pinch) with a regular army.

    Technically, you should only use Saurus characters but that is overly restrictive in my opinion

    Extra terrain features would not be amiss.

    This terrain set would be especially appropriate for generating features.

    Ruined Lizardmen Temple City
    2-Ordinary Hill
    3-Mysterious Lake (1-3 Ordinary, 4 Boiling Flood, 5 Necrotic Ooze, 6 “River” of Light)
    4-Steadfast Sanctum (1-3 Acropolis of Heroes, 4-6 Wizard Tower)
    5-Mysterious Marsh (1 ordinary, 2-3 Khemrian Quicksand, 4 Earthblood Mere, 5-6 Mist-wreathed Swamp)
    6-Obstacle (1-4 Wall, 5 Blessed Bulwark, 6 Blazing Barricade)
    7-Building or Ruin
    8-Mysterious Forest (1-2 Ordinary, 3 Venom Thicket, 4 Abyssal Wood, 5 Blood Forest, 6 Wildwood)
    9-Mysterious River (1-4 ordinary, 5 Raging Torrent, 6 River of Light)
    10-Magical Mystery (1-2 Magic Circle, 3-5 Arcane Ruins, 6 Wyrding Well)
    11-Sinister Structure (1-2 Charnel Pit, 3-4 Haunted “Mansion”, Sinister Statue 5-6)
    12-Makeshift Settlement (d3 buildings and d3 fences)
     
  13. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Carnasaur

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

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    This is awesome.
    If I recall correctly it is not mentioned that there are no skinks specifically, but I would assume that there were no Slann left, so he should probably not be taken.
    Limiting to only characters might be a bit much, and I'm not certain that is necessarily accurate. Why not make restrictions on the amount of Core, special and Rare you can take, or say that at least 70% of the army should be characters.
     
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  14. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    When my friend and I play Magnificient Seven, one side plays a regular army, the other only characters.

    You are free to make any special scenario rules you want. FREEDOM!
     
  15. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Carnasaur

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe this is obvious to anyone having played against daemons of chaos, but I think I get why Kroq-Gar's Spear does what it does, since it makes it quite potent against daemons and on a side note also Undead, given how they don't flee but can suffer wounds depending on how much they lost in combat.
     
  16. Lizards of Renown
    Skink Priest

    Lizards of Renown Well-Known Member

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    I can see how it would assist against Undead/Tomb Kings, but I'm not tracking how it specifically helps against Daemons of Chaos?
     
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  17. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Carnasaur

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

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    As I read it, Daemons just have a special version of the unstable rule, so the more you can beat them in combat, the more wounds they will take to combat resolution.
     
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  18. Lizards of Renown
    Skink Priest

    Lizards of Renown Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you're right. I missed this somehow.
     
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