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8th Ed. Kroxigar in Skinks

i agree on the wording in the book, that it says always. i think of it this way though: when the book came out, kroxigors were in the second rank so they could use their great reach rule and get what we now call supporting attacks. now, supporting attacks exist for everyone (and the great reach rule has been removed). the reason why they had to be in the 2nd rank was because otherwise they couldn't attack. now, they could be in the 3rd rank and attack due to the new horde and supporting attack rule. i understand what the book says, it would just be nice to check this against the new combat system with an FAQ question. remember, the original intent was to allow them to attack when not in the front row. that is now a common occurance, so why should they be held in the 2nd row?

the max kroxigors you can field at 3k is 24 (with the champ). comes to 1360 pts. ask me how i know :).

n810- where are you getting this "ranks are measured by skinks". it definately says in my book "for the purposes of counting the rank bonus of a unit...".
 
Preach it, Brother! :smug:

That is what my thinking is as well. I would like it made more clear. However, as I stated earlier, I will not play more than 3 Krox in a unit until I find out more.
 
Might check the Lizardmen FAQ, Kroxigor/Skink units have quite a few updates.

Rank bonus is counted by the number of ranks...
See entry next to the Mixed unit picture in the Lizardmen book.
also note that a Slann counts as 4 templeguard as far as ranks.
Also note in the BRB where is talks about different base sizes in one unit.
 
Coatl said:
i agree on the wording in the book, that it says always. i think of it this way though: when the book came out, kroxigors were in the second rank so they could use their great reach rule and get what we now call supporting attacks. now, supporting attacks exist for everyone (and the great reach rule has been removed). the reason why they had to be in the 2nd rank was because otherwise they couldn't attack. now, they could be in the 3rd rank and attack due to the new horde and supporting attack rule. i understand what the book says, it would just be nice to check this against the new combat system with an FAQ question. remember, the original intent was to allow them to attack when not in the front row. that is now a common occurance, so why should they be held in the 2nd row?

the max kroxigors you can field at 3k is 24 (with the champ). comes to 1360 pts. ask me how i know :).

n810- where are you getting this "ranks are measured by skinks". it definately says in my book "for the purposes of counting the rank bonus of a unit...".
Click to expand...


Right.. but the big difference here is how much supporting attack? Supporting attackers get only 1 attack regardless of original #. However, the great reach allows supporting attacks WITH full attacks.. so for kroxs it's 3. Big difference especially when you have a str 4 or 5 x3 each.

If I field a unit of only krox's, then I expect supporting hits as normal. However, being in a mixed unit, I don't see how anyone can have more than 1 rank of kroxigors. The # of models in that second rank could be very long..but I can't see how they'd even attack. They cannot use great reach as the krox's infront of them are same size and they are 3 rows back.. when only 2 rows get supporting attacks unless they are spears, which skinks only have javalins. Sorry.... I guess I just don't understand. lol
 
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610148a_FAQ_Lizardmen_V1_4.pdf

All the Sink/Kroxigor unit FAQ's so far...
Page 53 – Kroxigors, Spawn-kin
Ignore “A mixed unit of Kroxigors and Skinks may not make a
turn manoeuvre.”

Page 53, 97 – Kroxigors, Great Reach
Ignore this special rule.

Can you Stomp or Thunderstomp a unit of Skinks that
contains Kroxigor? (p94)
A: No, a mixed unit has the troop type of Unique.

Q. How do you resolve a bolt thrower shooting against a unit of
Skinks that includes Kroxigors? (p53)
A. Determine whether the initial model hit is a Skink or a
Kroxigor. The bolt will hit the first model of this type in its
path. Then work your way through the unit, hitting the model
directly behind each time a model is killed. Note that if the first
model hit is a Kroxigor, then the Skink in front of it is not hit.

Q. Does a unit of Skinks that includes Kroxigors cause Fear?
Are they immune to Fear? (p53)
A. Yes to both questions.
Click to expand...
 
Well, I suppose the fact remains that as long as there is confusion and not a concensus, then a rule should be addressed or clarified. I hope that Arli gets a response from GW on this. Im very curious now on their reply. :smug:
 
I'd like to state again that it doesn't matter if you can place Krox behind each other when in a Skrox unit. They would occupy the 4th and 5th rank and never gain supporting attacks unless you somehow equipped them with spears.

Being able to make a supporting attack is based on your rank position. The number of those supporting attacks, and the number of models wide to count as a horde are the only thing that unit type (base size argument) has anything to do with.
 
I did receive an email back from them. They told me to call them so that we could talk it over. I just got home and they are already gone, I will call them in the morning though.

I will let you guys know what they say.
 
I called the GW customer service line about this. You guys are correct that only a single rank of Kroxigors can go in a unit of skinks. They 'must' go in the second rank. However, they did tell me that If you wanted to run a unit wide enough to include 12 kroxigors you could. They also mentioned something else that I did not know. Because of the way that the supporting attack rule is written, the skinks directly behind the kroxigors get their attacks as well.

Thanks to Daniel with GW customer service. Daniel is a lizardmen player as well.
 
Thanks for getting the clarification on this Arli! Also good to know about the 3rd row skink supporting attacks. :D
 
Good to know, didn't figure the would get to hit. I guess it's because of the odd phrasing,
like additional rank of attacks, or something like that.
 
One thing Ive noticied throughout GW's Warhammer books in current and past years is how different written phrasing is compared to USA literature and reading/comprehension. The way some things are written may make perfectly good sense to UK readers (and vice versa) as things are generally written in the manner of how they speak. I can only imagine when rule books are transcribed into other languages, how much of it is interpreted in it's original meaning. So, when rules are asked for clarification in forums, some of the discrepency may be with how the paraphrasing reads to that particular literary culture. This is so true with reading some of the much older Warhammer rule books from 5th and 4th edition and earlier in my opinion.
 
I have heard complaints about the Spanish version being peticulary terrible.
 
Given GW Customer Service's history, I don't think we can consider this settled until/unless it appears in a FAQ. The ruling that skinks can attack behind Krox is good new for Lizardmen, but I wouldn't celebrate too much yet.

And admitedly, the ruling seems wrong to me. The supporting attacks rule says that a 3rd rank may attack, not that the third model in each may file may attack. Giving the skinks a supporting attack means that you are counting a different number of ranks for each file and that just doesn't make sense - #s of ranks is only defined for a whole unit. A single file doesn't have ranks, it is just guys in a line.

But if this ruling does stand (and I hope it does), then will it also apply to Slann/Temple Guard? By the same logic, the 2 TG behind the Slann should be allowed supporting attacks.
 
You're on the money, MI_Tiger! Though I have never called GW's CS, an adopted policy would be "it's not official until it's printed in FAQs or new book". The skinks behind the krox's should count as 4th rank from how I understand the mixed-unit rule. The only thing I can think of that would let 4th rank attack is if #1 they used spears (which they don't) and #2 if they are in a horde (or do I have the horde part confused with another rule?).

However, I'd really like for this to be true.. and to stretch it to the TG as well as you suggested. So... any news on who/when the next army to be updated after Ogres? :P
 
Normal unit: 2nd rank makes supporting attacks

Normal unit with spears: 2nd and 3rd rank get supporting attacks.

Horde unit: 2nd and 3rd rank gets supporting attacks.

Horde unit with spear: 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rank get supporting attacks.


Customer service is wrong. There is no room for interpretation if you actually read the BRB. Those skinks are in the 4th rank, not the 3rd. They will never gain supporting attacks regardless of how wide your unit is. The Krox clearly count as 4 models when determining rank, its shown right in the army book.
 
TheRolfgar said:
Customer service is wrong.
Click to expand...

Customer service is right.
why?

ranks and rank bonuses are 2 completely separate arrangements. while in most cases they are equal, in a mixed unit(like SKROX or Slann/guard) they get muddy, hence the AB wording that "for rank BONUS purposes they count as 4 models"

I would be the 1st person here agreeing with you if it was instead worded "for the purposes of ranks they count as 4 models" but it doesn't and your just wrong.

I believe that's what the major argument is here, that people have confused the 2 rules to be equal for all purposes when they aren't(hence the 2 different rules).
 
I will once again point to the screaming bell example. If there are skaven behind it, do they get supporting attacks, and what rank are they in? According to you they would be in the 2nd "rank" and give supporting attacks even though they are clearly in the 6th (? I honestly forget how deep that model is).

What if you have Skinks on the sides of your unit, surrounding the Krox. They would make up the 2nd and 3rd rank, and then have a 4th rank behind them (the same rank that is behind the Krox) Are you arguing that the side models are in the 4th rank while the ones in the middle of the unit behind krox are in the 3rd? There are no rules to support this argument.

You argue that the they only count for rank bonus, but in order for that you need to count them as ranks. You cannot have a rank bonus without a rank. You can however have ranks and not have a rank bonus (being attacked from the side/rear, you don't lose your rank, you lose you rank bonus).


Page 98 of the BRB shows how you calculate ranks with models of different sizes.
 
TheRolfgar said:
I will once again point to the screaming bell example. If there are skaven behind it, do they get supporting attacks, and what rank are they in? According to you they would be in the 2nd "rank" and give supporting attacks even though they are clearly in the 6th (? I honestly forget how deep that model is).

What if you have Skinks on the sides of your unit, surrounding the Krox. They would make up the 2nd and 3rd rank, and then have a 4th rank behind them (the same rank that is behind the Krox) Are you arguing that the side models are in the 4th rank while the ones in the middle of the unit behind krox are in the 3rd? There are no rules to support this argument.
.......
Page 98 of the BRB shows how you calculate ranks with models of different sizes.
Click to expand...



about time someone actually came up with a good argument.
ignore underlined, go to next post for it
I suppose your right as far as RAW goes, but your argument supports my stance as well as yours.

Thus I would argue that Yes the ranks behind the bell get to attack. Why? because as the BRB states you assume the bell is actually the same number of dudes fighting. so you would in fact get the 2 ranks behind the bell(1 support, 1 horde) BRB 98: If your character fits into a unit in this nature(its the same footprint as multiple models), work out a units rank(and therefore rank bonus) as if the space was filled with rank and file troops. Rank and file troops who cant attack hrrm?

as for the kroxigore are you serious, in a mixed unit like that its obviously easier(and GW just told you to do it this way) to count your supporting attacks from the front rank, file by file, so yes for RANK bonus purposes, your 1st rank of skinks, 2nd rank of krox, and 3rd rank of skinks count as 4 ranks. For supporting attacks purposes, you would get the 1st rank of skinks, the 1st rank of krox, any skinks behind them, if you have skinks next to the krox, you would essentially get the 1st 3 ranks of skinks, and not the 4th. So while for RB purpose, those skinks behind krox are in rank 4, for SA purposes they're in rank 3.

TheRolfgar said:
You argue that the they only count for rank bonus, but in order for that you need to count them as ranks. You cannot have a rank bonus without a rank. You can however have ranks and not have a rank bonus (being attacked from the side/rear, you don't lose your rank, you lose you rank bonus).
Click to expand...

Because the kroxigore are counted as 2 ranks for RB purposes, any models behind them have 2 states, they are both RANK X(theyre actual physical distance to the front, counting a krox as 1, and RANK BONUS X+1(they're actual physical distance to the front, counting a kroxigore as 2). Since supporting attacks only measure ranks and not rank bonus, you follow the 1st RANK state for your attacks. Just because they're counted as 4 models for the purposes of RB does not make them count that way for RANKS.

Rank bonus is equal to rank, thus all ranks are rank bonus.
up is a direction, thus all directions are up

You seem to have a problem understanding the fact that ranks aren't ALWAYS straight lines. In almost all cases they are, but as soon as you throw some randoms sized figure in like a krox or the bell you stop.


I apologize for any spelling mistakes that made it through this, skinks and kroxigore come up as errors, so finding the legitimate ones is sometimes hard.
 
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