8th Ed. Kroxigors VS Cowboys

[Dreadgrass]

SHowdown at the S7 ASL corral...

So the basis of my question comes from running a list recently with 3 scar-vet cowboys for anti-armour duties. They total up to ~430pts and I've been wondering if 2 units of 4 Korxigor might be a better alternative... The only real major drawback of the krox I can see is their larger footprint, but my army is skink based so it shouldn't be too difficult to squeeze them into the battleline.

So, I put it to you, my cold-blooded co-conspirators, are units of kroxigor (without skinks) an overlooked answer to one of our armies weakpoints? Obviously a lot can depend on your list etc, but the more I look at them, the more I feel the added bulk and weight of attacks might be the way to go for me....

 

[Lizardmatt]

SHowdown at the S7 ASL corral...

So the basis of my question comes from running a list recently with 3 scar-vet cowboys for anti-armour duties. They total up to ~430pts and I've been wondering if 2 units of 4 Korxigor might be a better alternative... The only real major drawback of the krox I can see is their larger footprint, but my army is skink based so it shouldn't be too difficult to squeeze them into the battleline.

So, I put it to you, my cold-blooded co-conspirators, are units of kroxigor (without skinks) an overlooked answer to one of our armies weakpoints? Obviously a lot can depend on your list etc, but the more I look at them, the more I feel the added bulk and weight of attacks might be the way to go for me....

I'd take Krox is you're running skinks.
I'd take cowboys if you're running saurus.

Cowboys don't play nice with Indians (skink skirmishers), as they get stuck on the outside edge of the unit, and cannot make way.

 

[hdctambien]

3 scar-vet cowboys for anti-armour duties

Hehe... "duties"

The only real major drawback of the krox I can see is their larger footprint

I think the main drawback would be a little less maneuverability. If you need to suddenly go back from whence you came, you can just spin the cowboy around and start moving. The Krox would have to do a gigantic wheel or reform (without a musician).

A barebones Cowboy is just over 100 points with a Cold One, Great Weapon, and Light Armor. That's 4 Str 7 attacks + 2 Str 4 attacks and a 2+ armor save for 3 wounds.

For that you can get 2 Kroxigor with 6 Str 7 attacks and 4+ armor save for 6 wounds.

So it would take 12 str3 wounds to kill the krox and 12 Str3 wounds to kill the Cowboy. The first 6 Str3 wounds will cut the Krox damage output in half, though.

The krox would wound a T3 opponent 5.8 times with 6 attacks + 1 PF
The SV would wound a T3 opponent 3.88 times with 4 attacks + 2/3 PF and the CO would wound 1.33 times (and possibly allow a 6+ armor save vs the type of armor kits T3 units have)

So on average, the krox would do more damage, 5.8 S7 wounds vs 5.2 Str7/4 wounds.

The tougher the opponent gets (in toughness or armor save) the less wounds the Cowboy will output (due to the cold one's lower str) and he would approach 3.8 wounds.

All those calculations are assuming that all units hit with all their attacks. The Scar Vet, however will hit more often than the Kroxigor because of WS5 vs WS3. He will also get hit less. However, the 2 Cold One attacks will also suffer from opponents with higher WS which will make the damage output comparison a little more favorable to the Kroxigor.

And, as you mentioned, the larger footprint of the Kroxigor means they would potentially receive more attacks from rank and file than a cowboy would (even a flanked cowboy).

Plus, the fact that you can throw magic items at a Cowboy to make him more survivable/deadly.

And finally, you can't take just 2 kroxigor. So make it 4 Krox and 2 barebones Scar Vets and just double all those numbers.

All of that, and because we have a really crowded Special section with a lot of really good choices, I think I'd rather spend Hero points on Cowboys than Special Points on Kroxigor to fill the Cowboy role.

That being said, I wasn't so sure about which way I'd go until I started running the numbers. Now, 8 Kroxigor vs 26 Temple Guard with full command....

(I did a lot of fuzzy math here, I'm interested to hear how other people run the numbers to compare units)

 

[Sleboda]

The analysis is appreciated, but I think one of the strengths of this book is that there are indeed several ways to do similar things and no one of them stands out as the clear winner. This means you can just what you like and not feel stupid for doing so.

In my case, this means 6-8 Kroxigor are in my list at all times and the only ScarVet on Cold One is my BSB.

 

[Pinktaco]

@hdctambien just a 2 things:

1) a scar vet only have 2 wounds, not 3.

2) kroxigors (if used as special units) also deals S5 stomp.

Wait.. Actually 3 things:

3) both the kroxigors and scar vet have predatory fighter, however, (and this is a really small thing) the kroxigors have 2 more attacks to generate additional attacks, compared to the scar vet.

My point is that I don't think your comparison is fair. 2 kroxigors that arent bunkered with skinks will have 6S7 attacks that needs to hit with WS3 and can generate just a bit more PF attacks and comes with 2 stomps that will auto-hit and wound most things due to S5.

With that said I'm not saying that krox > scar vets, just that we need to factor in eveything.

Woops one last thing: if we're going to be super strict with this a cowboy with GW and LA comes at 110 pts, this would actually allow us to use an additional 10pts on the kroxigors, giving them a champion and one additional attack. That would make it 7S7 + 2S5 attacsk vs 4S7 + 2S4 attacks. Not much of a difference, but still worth to mention.

 

[hdctambien]

1) a scar vet only have 2 wounds, not 3.

The way I calculated the required wounds to kill was:

Kroxigor: 12 wounds * 1/2 chance save fails = 6 wounds taken
Scar Vet: 12 wounds * 1/6 chance to fail = 2 wounds taken

Initially I calculated the scar vet as having 3 wounds (and requiring 18 wounds to die) but I realized my mistake. I forgot to fix the part earlier in my post where I specified that it had 3 wounds though...

2) kroxigors (if used as special units) also deals S5 stomp.

I completely forgot about the stomps. That definitely makes them even more killy than the cowboy.

3) both the kroxigors and scar vet have predatory fighter, however, (and this is a really small thing) the kroxigors have 2 more attacks to generate additional attacks, compared to the scar vet.

I took PF into account when I calcualted how many wounds each would deal. I gave the Krox +1 attacks (1/6 chance * 6 attacks) and the scar vet +0.66 attacks (1/6 * 4). That being said, the maximum potential of attacks is 12 for the kroxigor and 8 for the Scar Vet. So again, the Kroxigor are more killy.

a cowboy with GW and LA comes at 110 pts, this would actually allow us to use an additional 10pts on the kroxigors, giving them a champion and one additional attack

Yeah, I wasn't too sure about throwing out the 110 number due t the rules on listing point costs. And the additional Krox attack barely changes the numbers (it's pretty much a rounding error on the number of wounds delt) And it slightly skews the math when you double the numbers to compare 4 Krox vs 2 Cowboys. But that is a good point.



I think the better choice of 4 Krox vs 2 Scar Vets depends on what you expect to be sending them up against.

Monsters: I think I like the Kroxigor against monsters over the Scar Vets. 4 Krox will probably do better against a Hydra than 2 Scar Vets. Nobody gets their stomps, but the potential for the Kroxigor to do a boat load of attacks is too good to pass up.

Fast Cav/Skirmishers/Flyers: 4 Kroxigor will never be able to out manuver one of these, but individual cowboys are just as maneuverable as a unit of fast cav, and running 2 or 3 cowboys in a cluster (but not a unit) can give your opponent harder decisions on his movement phase.

Infantry: 1 Scar Vet could probably hold up a block of regular infantry troops. He'd only be taking attacks from 6 models per round and probably rarely taking a wound. The Kroxigor would be getting hit by 12 models and would be taking wounds more often (because of the lesser save) but their Stomp would come into play and the Krox would have a better chance of winning combat rather than just holding the unit up. If you chargeed them in the flank I think Krox beat Scar Vets hands down, otherwise it's a toss up.

Monstrous Infantry: I think the Kroxigor's bigger footprint and lower T/AS would be a big disadvantage here.

Shooty Things: Anything shooty is going to pick apart the Krox easier than they will kill a Scar Vet due to the lower toughness and armor save. Although, the Krox might have a better change of getting *something* into combat after running through a hail of bowfire. I've often had my Scar Vets brushoff 50+ shots (of Chaos Dwarf blunderbusses) through 2 shooting phases and a stand&shoot and not even notice (though, that is with a 1+ rerollable save or a ward). I'd go with Scar Vets if there is a lot of shooting lying around.

So, taking Pinktaco's points into consideration I think I would take 4 Krox over 2 cowboys against the DE player that takes 2 Hydra and a block of Witch Elves but I would take the Scar Vets against the DE player that takes a million units of Dark Riders, a unit of sword elves, an a unit of Warlocks. (Those are the DE armies that I've played against at my local game store)

And for 400ish points. It would probably be a nice mix to take 1 unit of 4 Krox (with Ancient) and 1 Cowboy with some magic items and get the best of both worlds.

 

[Scalenex]

I'd take Krox is you're running skinks.
I'd take cowboys if you're running saurus.

Cowboys don't play nice with Indians (skink skirmishers), as they get stuck on the outside edge of the unit, and cannot make way.

I've seen the other problem. I tend to run Saurus heavy armies. When I take units of Kroxigor they often don't have the space to maneuver. THus I can reinforce the second half of Lizardmatt's point.

 

[shortlegs]

An advantage of cowboys is that they are relatively immune to small arms fire and weak attacks which allows them to be shoved into the face of such units with impunity. Yes, they only have 2 wounds, but their ability to be geared up creates situations where the opponent really has to bring something hard hitting to truly counter them effectively.

If I see an equivalent points in krox across me, my thoughts will be, ok, I can handle that, I can shoot them first then charge with non-ASL troops to take even more wounds off such that whatever that's left will fail to accomplish much. I see krox as a unit that an opponent can deal with using more conventional means and are thus less of an issue to face.

But when I see cowboys across me, its so much more difficult to take them out with non-warmachine shooting, and so much more difficult getting wounds through in combat due to good gear and small frontage, while consistently maintaining its damage output. They are something that I need to have a much more specific and limited way to deal with reliably or else they run rampant.

Maybe its just me, but cowboys are the clear winners in this matchup.

 

[RipperDerek]

It's not just you. Kroxigor are in a weird spot this edition; they're actually one of our better combat units, but the specific things they're good at, our best units do better, leaving little room for them (in my lists, at least). Against a lot of enemies, a large Krox block will put up a good fight the first round, but round after round of striking last while being squishy means they have trouble sealing the deal.

Cowboys, for example, can take on almost anything Krox can, but then can also be effective against all kinds of things that slaughter Krox, like White Lions and Witch Elves.

Which brings us to the other, non-cowboy problem with Kroxigor: Temple Guard are usually better. They're tougher against shooting, have better weapon skill and initiative, and you can get 3.5 of them for the price of 1 Kroxigor. That means you get 7 attacks at ST5 WS4 for the same point investment, which is almost always better than 3 attacks at ST7 WS3. The temple guard can also get ranks, command models, and access to magic banners. They can even bunker characters effectively, which again Krox cannot do.

To put it into perspective, a horde of Kroxigor loses in combat to a horde of Trolls that costs 50% fewer points, simply because of ASL. A horde of templeguard with the flaming banner, however, crushes the same horde of trolls, and is actually cheaper than either horde.

 

[Pinktaco]

Unfortuntely though Kroxigors actually fits right in with the fluff:

Fluff-wise they're builders AFAIK and not actual warriors like saurus warriors. So it would make sense for them to not have WS4.

Fluff/balance-wise: They come with a T4. If we bumped that to T5 that would make them as durable as a carnosaur or bastiladon. That wouldn't make much sense the way I see it.
The same thing about their AS. If they came with a 3+ AS they would have as much as an ancient stegadon.

It just wouldn't make much sense IMO to have 50pts special unit to have as much toughness or armour saves as some of the bigger units that costs vastly more.

I don't see a reason to lower their cost anymore. 50pts is already a good prise and lower wouldn't make that much sense compared to other factions similar unit, or am I completely off here?

Alternatively they could've kept their 7th edition price, keep their AS4+ AND get some sort of regen (5+?).

Or maybe they should come with a handweapon and great weapon and be able to either buy an additional handweapon or a halbard along with an initiative buff. This way they could've been I3 with the bastiladon and have S6 with the halbard or 4 S5 attacks with an extra hand weapon.

I'm just guessing here, but the kroxigors are such great models

 

[PestilenceoftheGods]

You try running krox darts? Is that a tactic you guys utilize? Two krox deployed 1x2. Minimizes their footprint while retaining 100% of their potential.

 

[Man0waR]

Minimum Size of Kroxigor Unit is 3. You can also Dart in a 1x3 with champion and issue a Challenge, then you do a low sportmanship trick.

The b2b model is in a challenge and no one except the other challenger could attack him. Also you have 3 mounstrous supporting attack.

But even if the rules allow this... I would feel so dirt.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Am I the only one liking cowboys with halberds?
After getting to barrow krox blocks, I'm thinking that the correct answer isn't either/or, it's both.
Take the Cowboy with the S6 halberd, and the Krox. The cowboys go for things that ASL doesn't want to touch.

Something like
Slaan, BSB, high magic
2x cheap cowboys (gamblers armor on one, light armor dragon helm on the other)
1 skink spotter (level 1 lore of beast)
4x 11 skinks, poison attacks, full command, each with 1 krox
2x6 Krox
2x3 Ripperdactyles
6 Razordons

It's a very fast, very hard hitting list.

 

[PestilenceoftheGods]

Right, min. size units. Skaven doesn't have that for Ratogres, which is where the tactic comes from. With a unit 3 long could be wasted pts since you're not utilizing the unit entire attack potential. Not to mention the unwieldieness for being so long. Not sure how it would be unsportsman in a challenge since only the participants may attack eachother. Though it could be useful in knocking out enemy characters. 6+ str7 attacks could do some damage.

 

[Eladimir]

Minimum Size of Kroxigor Unit is 3. You can also Dart in a 1x3 with champion and issue a Challenge, then you do a low sportmanship trick.

The b2b model is in a challenge and no one except the other challenger could attack him. Also you have 3 mounstrous supporting attack.

But even if the rules allow this... I would feel so dirt.

Its just that init 3 rarely goes before anything that could threaten the SV so for virtually zero points and zero downside you get +2 Str instead of +1.

 

[Man0waR]

What I mean of feeling dirt is if you go on a dart with champion and your champion is b2b with a unit.

The champion could only be attacked by the challenger, and the whole unit stare since has nothing more b2b.
But your Kroxigor in second rank, can deliver his 3 supporting attacks against any model b2b with the Kroxigor in first rank, which is the champion. So the Krox champion will be b2b with the challenger and at least 2 or 3 more models of the unit.

So we end exploiting the rules where you can strike without retaliate with your supporting attacks.
The most common outcome is you won the challenge against a unit champion by 2 or 3 wounds (you get 4 PF S7 attacks + S5 Stomp, all goes ASL) and the 2nd rank Krox tries to kill any weak character.

Not as efficient as a 2 MI unit as you need to field 3, but you have a champion to do this kind of cheap tricks.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Its just that init 3 rarely goes before anything that could threaten the SV so for virtually zero points and zero downside you get +2 Str instead of +1.

That's what you think until my cowboy kills your cowboy.
Hand of Glory and Bastiladons can boost Init.
A lot of monsters are Init 2 or 3, so swinging ahead of them, or with them is often better than swinging after and hoping to still be alive.

 

[Dog On Todd]

Its just that init 3 rarely goes before anything that could threaten the SV so for virtually zero points and zero downside you get +2 Str instead of +1.

That's what you think until my cowboy kills your cowboy.
Hand of Glory and Bastiladons can boost Init.
A lot of monsters are Init 2 or 3, so swinging ahead of them, or with them is often better than swinging after and hoping to still be alive.

I agree with this. Unfortunately, I still like +2 str for killing other characters, which is what I tend to use my Cowboys for

 

[Dreadgrass]

For the same initiative reasons, I'm thinking of running a scarvet with sword of might. Magic attacks will also help him take on ethereals and gives him a free hand to use a shield for his 1+ save, making way for things like glittering scales...

 

[RipperDerek]

A good Scar-vet load-out is Dawnstone, Charmed Shield, and Sword of Might. Gets him to 1+ AS, while striking in initiative order, resistant to cannons, and hard to kill in combat.