A physical death... I should most definitely hope not!!! The death of your hopes and aspirations (in the context of this particular goal/quest)... It's easy to rule over a region that isn't really contested. The Beastmen have no real holdings of power. They can't take or create any place of any real significance. Something akin to being the ruler of Antarctica. It most definitely does not. Beastmen are ultimately too stupid to be that much of a threat. A poor man's Orcs and Goblins, dumber than Goblins and less formidable than Orcs. In the lore, the Vampire Counts have had a more significant impact... Manfred anyone? The Beastmen exist along the fringes of the game/lore. They don't even get the blessings of their gods . CD are blessed by Hashut. WoC are blessed by the four Chaos gods. DoC are pretty much an extension of their gods. Outside of the lore, it is a landslide in favour of the VC: a much better supported model range far more competent army book much larger fan base extended reach beyond the main games (Cursed City) I believe that Chaos Dwarfs can take their armour off, just as regular Dwarfs can. The only exception might be the helms of the Infernal Guard, and even then, only some of the them (champion model for instance does not even wear one) I'm not sure if Chaos Warriors even need to eat. Many of them live quite extravagantly. For instance (VC army book, page 52): In the case of their undead underlings, you would be correct, but they're just cannon fodder. Skaven were the last army to get a book under 7th. Their book was likely largely written with 8th edition already in mind. And the fact that their book is so good does make a difference, as they can successfully function in the 8th edition sphere. At least we agree on one thing.
I wouldn't say that - men and Dwarfs need the forests for wood to use in buildings, wagons and weapons, and Forest Goblins and Wood Elves live in them. All of them of course have to get past the Beastmen in order to do that. The fact that they regularly use Ambush tactics shows they're probably about on par with Goblins. It is more intelligent to attack someone from an angle they are not expecting than to just charge right into their face as Orcs and Ogres do. Also do Chaos Warriors have much in the way of tactical knowledge lorewise? Because knowing the way the army plays and given they're made up of simple-but-bloodthirsty Norscan barbarians, I could be mistaken for thinking they don't. Again, I disagree. A standard Gor has a similar profile to an Orc Boy but has +1 Initiative so gets to fight first, +1 WS, +1 Movement and around 50% chance to get Hatred on any combat turn. Thus the Gor has a fair chance of killing the Orc before the Greenskin can strike back. I agree that the 7th Edition book does give that impression, but again I hold the writers to blame for that. The 6th Edition army book gave them a lot of different mechanics that veered them away from being a clone of Greenskins. What did Mannfred do of any significance other than backstab everyone during the End Times? Please enlighten me as you're such a fan. On my part, I would hold Gorthor and Morghur as being of significant influence - Gorthor almost destroyed two Imperial provinces and damaged them so badly that they never really recovered (as well as being favoured by all four Chaos Gods), and Morghur has spent the last few Warhammer millennia poisoning Athel Loren and trolling the Wood Elves by resurrecting whenever they try to kill him. In 6th Edition and AoS Beastmen can take Marks, and even in 8th a lot of tournaments nowadays allow Beastmen to take marks to give the army a bit of oomph, so the general consensus is that they do receive blessings from the Chaos Gods, even if the writers of the 7th Edition book largely forgot about this (and even then Beastmen can take Gifts of Chaos, which are still blessings from the gods in the same way as Warriors' Chaos Mutations). I would advise you look at the 6th Edition Beastman book, as it and portrayed the Beastmen as a lot more of a threat, more intelligent and far more widespread, while the 7th Edition one gave us a significant 'lore-nerf' as well as a rules nerf in significant places. Actually Tzaangors appeared in Silver Tower, so technically Beastmen do have an extended reach, but the rest of your points are sadly correct. Just noticed this quote from the Warriors of Chaos book, page 31: And perhaps that's just as well, otherwise if they did then things would get pretty messy inside their armour Actually Beastmen were the last, just pipping Skaven in that regard. Skaven received theirs in December 2009, Beastmen didn't get theirs until February 2010. This can be proven by the fact that Beastmen were the first army to introduce a separate signature spell for their 7th Edition Lore, Bestial Surge from the much-maligned Lore of the Wild, compared to Skaven who, like the other 7th Ed armies, were assigned one of the main 6 spells in the lore they were using to be their signature spell (which for Skaven depended on whether the Wizard in question is a Grey Seer, Plague Priest or Warlock Engineer). It certainly does make me wonder what GW quality control thought they were doing when they were willing to give the 7th Edition Beastman book the green light the way it was, rather than saying 'hold on, this needs work'. I do still suspect faction bias, because I just can't think of any other reason why they would allow this to happen. On one hand there were some things added that were very good, Primal Fury added some combat clout (this didn't exist in the 6th Edition one), Bray-Shamans are on the more dangerous side of the Wizard spectrum both with magic and in combat, and I can imagine Ghorgons and Jabberslythes were a lot more worth their points in 7th when Terror was so much more impactful, but sacrificing much of what made Beastmen a unique and competent army (Ambush, Raiders, Marks, Mixed Herds) was not necessary. It didn't help either that the changes 8th made just happened to hurt Beastmen a lot (compared to Skaven who got a lot more out of it), what with Lore of Beasts becoming a MK 2 of Lore of the Wild and Fear and Terror being nerfed and thus making a lot of their units overcosted, compared to Skaven who got more excuses to make use of Strength in Numbers and saw their war machines become deadlier than ever.
That's my point, Beastmen occupy the fringes. Similar to the Wood Elves. Comparing the holdings of the Beastmen to something like the Vampire Counts would be akin to comparing the holdings of the Wood Elves to the High Elves. The Beastmen can hinder resource collection and travel, but can seldom threaten major seats of power. Ambushing does require some intelligence, but we're still in the sphere of animal intelligence, albeit among the higher tier of animal intelligence. Lions for instance use rather sophisticated ambush tactics and set up traps for prey, but they are still a far cry from human level intelligence. Vampires on the other hand do have human-level intelligence, if not more due to accrued experience amassed during their extended "lifespans". Vampires have been known to assimilate into or pass off as human nobility. We're talking about knowledge of history, customs, language, reading, etc. A Vampire could read and understand our posts, while a Beastman would simply shit on the computer screen. The fact that weedy little Goblins can take and hold significant holdings from someone as formidable as the Dwarfs is indicative that they are significantly more intelligent than Beastmen. I suppose it would depend on where the Chaos Warrior originally came from and their god affiliation. A standard bloodthirsty Khorne Warrior would likely not be very smart, although even among them, someone like Valkia is depicted to have intelligence significantly above a Beastman. On the opposite side though, the lord-level followers of Tzeentch would possess significant intelligence, on par with just about anyone in Warhammer. Are we talking lore or rules? You probably don't want to invoke the latter because the Beastmen book is laughable. Beastmen don't pose a threat like a significantly sized WAAAGH does. Beastmen have no champion with the prowess of a Grimgor Ironhide. The Orcs have been responsible for more significant destruction and pose a much greater threat. Being ultimately responsible for the destruction of the entire world is a pretty significant event. I would imagine that requires very little in the way of explanation. I'm obviously no fan of the End Times, but if we are to include it, then Mannfred's "contribution" is perhaps the most significant in all of Warhammer. Also, one does not have to be a fan of something to recognize it's significance. You bring me AoS as evidence... truly the mark of the desperate. In terms of 6th edition, that is going quite a ways back (2ish decades?). As for 8th edition tournament rulings, those are completely unofficial and meaningless. I can make up rules on the spot and they would hold the same level of significance. Okay, so let's say that the Vampires have a much greater extended reach above the mainline games. They too have a Warhammer Underworlds kit and have Cursed City to boot (which is being brought back, extended and supported). Fair enough, you are correct on that. The point still stands that the Skaven still work and the Beastmen largely don't. Also it is rather surprising to see that the Skaven didn't get an 8th edition book, but it is hardly shocking that Beastmen or Bretonnia did not. And for the record, when it comes to race intelligence (not that you have argued otherwise), Skaven >>>> Beastmen. Looking at all the races in terms of intelligence, I'd lump the Beastmen in at the very bottom tier with the Orcs (but not Goblins) and the Ogres, with the Orcs probably being the dumbest of the mainline races. It does depend on how we measure intelligence though... are we considering the lowest intelligence from a race, the average or their peak potential. For instance, the dumbest of Beastman would be considerably smarter than a Kroxigor (the low end) but the smartest Beastman would be nowhere near the level of a Slann (the upper end). As an entire race, the Lizardmen would also be significantly smarter. Still, at the end of the day, Beastmen roll around in their own filth and shit. So there is always that.
I'm a grumbly Chaos Dwarf I hope I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to be realistic. Do you feel that it will be a good series?
I sure hope they make it at least decent to watch. But I am fearing for a disaster ... On the other hand, I am really curious if and how they will honor the stories. Grrr, Imrahil
That hasn't exactly been the strong suit of "Hollywood" over the past decade. Personally I thought the Hobbit movies were terrible, a very far cry from the masterpiece that was the LOTR trilogy. I have significantly less hope for this series. Indeed!
The key element of the LOTR trilogy was that Peter Jackson was a geniune, obsessed fanboy. He wanted it to be a true and correct representation. He did a f**king good job of it. Because he really wanted to. As soon as someone shows me a director who is a GENUINE FAN of the book series that he is making into a TV series/Movie, then I'll show you a movie that will be true to the books (and if they have skill at directing a really good watch).