8th Ed. Let s talk about Kroxigors

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Not to mention the whole cannon issue which is a greater problem for a steg than unit of kroxigors.

I'm not saying a stegadon isn't good, just that it's a bit more of a risk/reward unit.

I agree. If your opponent doesn't have big artillery pieces, then the Steg is probably the better choice due to increased versatility. But if you're facing a pair of cannons, the Steg is a liability.

 

[Pinktaco]

I agree. If your opponent doesn't have big artillery pieces, then the Steg is probably the better choice due to increased versatility. But if you're facing a pair of cannons, the Steg is a liability.

I'm not sure I'd say "better", just a suitable alternative that can serve different roles.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I'm not sure I'd say "better", just a suitable alternative that can serve different roles.

The Kroxigors are ideal at taking out monsters and other "big things", but suffer greatly against ranked infantry.

Sharped horned Stegadons can also take down monsters and other monstrous stuff, but also bring a bit of shooting with them, terror, and are better equipped to fight infantry due to stubborn, 3+ scaly skin and toughness 6.

 

[Pinktaco]

The Kroxigors are ideal at taking out monsters and other "big things", but suffer greatly against ranked infantry.

Sharped horned Stegadons can also take down monsters and other monstrous stuff, but also bring a bit of shooting with them, terror, and are better equipped to fight infantry due to stubborn, 3+ scaly skin and toughness 6.

Truthfully I don't see much reason to discuss this, but I'll bite.

I don't necessarily agree on the ancient stegadon being an overall better unit due to increased versatility. Sure it can shoot, but it's very mediocre - after all the penalties you'll likely be shooting at 7+ To Hit which remove the entire idea with poisoned shots. Move the steg in close range and you'd likely be better off just charging, unless you misplaced the poor thing during the deployment.There is obviously the one situation where YOU are being charged from close range (likely because you failed a charge), but then the steg have likely lost most of what makes it so special to begin with - the impact hits.

Against infantry models you're relying on thunderstomp, which can very well flop. An ancient stegadon have downright bad combat stats in close combat. Obviously the day dream of seeing two ancient stegadons smashing into an infantry unit, doing massive damage with both impact hits and thunderstomp is great, but in truth it'll likely never happen and if nothing else it's a massive and very expensive gamble.

Then there's the third argument - being versatile doesn't autamatically make you a better unit. I'd much rather take a Necromancer and fighty vamp lord than putting it all into the vamp lord. Now to be fair the versatility of the steg does make it an interesting unit and it part of making it good, but I wouldn't say it makes it better than a specialist unit (kroxigors or a similar priced OB). It just merely perform a different job, which doesn't necessarily make it better.

A better unit would be a fully kitted OB compared to 5 kroxigors. The OB will take on almost anything in the game including infantry and with no sweat. That's a better performing unit, for the same price and same strenght.

Anyway all of this is just my opinion. You are free to disagree, but I'm not sure it'll actually benefit the discussion here, although I suppose it's good for some to get all aspects (new players learning the army etc).

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Truthfully I don't see much reason to discuss this, but I'll bite.

I don't necessarily agree on the ancient stegadon being an overall better unit due to increased versatility. Sure it can shoot, but it's very mediocre - after all the penalties you'll likely be shooting at 7+ To Hit which remove the entire idea with poisoned shots. Move the steg in close range and you'd likely be better off just charging, unless you misplaced the poor thing during the deployment.There is obviously the one situation where YOU are being charged from close range (likely because you failed a charge), but then the steg have likely lost most of what makes it so special to begin with - the impact hits.

Against infantry models you're relying on thunderstomp, which can very well flop. An ancient stegadon have downright bad combat stats in close combat. Obviously the day dream of seeing two ancient stegadons smashing into an infantry unit, doing massive damage with both impact hits and thunderstomp is great, but in truth it'll likely never happen and if nothing else it's a massive and very expensive gamble.

Then there's the third argument - being versatile doesn't autamatically make you a better unit. I'd much rather take a Necromancer and fighty vamp lord than putting it all into the vamp lord. Now to be fair the versatility of the steg does make it an interesting unit and it part of making it good, but I wouldn't say it makes it better than a specialist unit (kroxigors or a similar priced OB). It just merely perform a different job, which doesn't necessarily make it better.

A better unit would be a fully kitted OB compared to 5 kroxigors. The OB will take on almost anything in the game including infantry and with no sweat. That's a better performing unit, for the same price and same strenght.

Anyway all of this is just my opinion. You are free to disagree, but I'm not sure it'll actually benefit the discussion here, although I suppose it's good for some to get all aspects (new players learning the army etc).

The shooting attack of the Steg is just a nice little bonus (as is the terror), it's not quite purely what I was referring to when talking about versatility. I think we're both looking at versatility different ways, which was my fault since my post was vague. I'm not referring to versatility across phases in this instance, but rather combat versatility. Kroxigors have some really good match-ups and some downright suicide match-ups. I feel the Steg has just as many great match-ups but fewer downright devastatingly bad match-ups (of course there are always exceptions). A large block of infantry is not an ideal match for a Steg, but it is an even worse match-up for Krox. It just seems that target selection is more vital for the Krox; meaning the Steg can successfully engage a wider range of units. That to me is a great tactical advantage to have. The krox are more easily dealt with by your opponent; cannons being the obvious exception... with cannons on the field, Krox are better. So overall, the Steg is more versatile because it can take on a greater range of units successfully and is more difficult for your opponent to deal with (cannons aside). But don't get me wrong, I like Krox more (fluff, etc.), but I feel that in a cannon free game, the Steg will outperform the Krox.

I completely agree with you in regards to the OB. The OB is far superior to both the Steg and the Krox; it's not even a close contest. A properly kitted out OB can stand toe to toe with most things in warhammer.

 

[Skinquisitor]

Stegs are awesome, but also worth 5 kroxigors. 5 Kroxigors = 15 S7 attacks and 15 wounds. Kroxigors can continue to deal damage in combat and do not require a random impact hit to roll well. Not to mention the whole cannon issue which is a greater problem for a steg than unit of kroxigors.

I'm not saying a stegadon isn't good, just that it's a bit more of a risk/reward unit. Obviously depending on your meta and whether you play with open or closed lists.

Oh and T3 is imo considered mediocre. T4 and 4+ armour is decent. Not that it really matter a whole lot ^^

15 S7, aye. But they are asl. If they face something with s4... youll have 1-2 down before they can even lift their weapons. Stegs T6 is so much pain in the ass for almost everything. And, against cannon: 1 shot is not likely to kill the steg outright, but its more likely that it will kill 2 kroxigors. The steg can do to its full potential after being shot, but with the kroxigors, you just lost 6 attacks.

 

[n810]

I Would imagine that you would likely only field them 1 deep when facing cannons,
and face perpendicular to the cannon(s), this should reduce casualties to 1 per cannon.
later you can reform deeper the turn before you plan on charging something.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I Would imagine that you would likely only field them 1 deep when facing cannons,
and face perpendicular to the cannon(s), this should reduce casualties to 1 per cannon.
later you can reform deeper the turn before you plan on charging something.

That's a good strategy for smaller units, but would be problematic for unit of 6+ as the unit would get excessively wide and difficult to maneuver. In those cases, you just have to hope for the best and take out the cannons as soon as possible. At least Kroxigors aren't as juicy of a target for a cannon as Bastiladons, Stegs, Carnos, and Troglodons (does anyone even field Trogs?).

 

[pendrake]

Are swarms any good to throw against cannons? Like if you had 5 swarm bases and assigned it to chew on a cannon?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Are swarms any good to throw against cannons? Like if you had 5 swarm bases and assigned it to chew on a cannon?

At only movement 5, I'd say they are a poor choice for cannon assassination. For their cost, why not take Chameleon skinks, Terradon Chief, Terradon Riders or Rippers?

 

[pendrake]

At only movement 5, I'd say they are a poor choice for cannon assassination. For their cost, why not take Chameleon skinks, Terradon Chief, Terradon Riders or Rippers?

Well I have several...but not so many of these other things. Do the CSkinks just move up near the cannon and try to dart the crew? (Seems like a dwarf cannon crew, and a couple of engineer could hold their own against the CSkinks in HtH...)

 

[Pinktaco]

15 S7, aye. But they are asl. If they face something with s4... youll have 1-2 down before they can even lift their weapons. Stegs T6 is so much pain in the ass for almost everything. And, against cannon: 1 shot is not likely to kill the steg outright, but its more likely that it will kill 2 kroxigors. The steg can do to its full potential after being shot, but with the kroxigors, you just lost 6 attacks.

That's assuming a front charge against a horde of S4 attacks. It'll take 28 attacks at WS4 and S4 to remove 6 wounds. Not only are the kroxigors now fighting something they were never intended for, but also straight up in the face of a horde. Of course they'll perish. I've already said that stegs and kroxigors have difference strenght and weaknesses. Ideally you'd want a flank charge on knights or remove monsters from the board with kroxigors

 

[Skinquisitor]

That's assuming a front charge against a horde of S4 attacks. It'll take 28 attacks at WS4 and S4 to remove 6 wounds. Not only are the kroxigors now fighting something they were never intended for, but also straight up in the face of a horde. Of course they'll perish. I've already said that stegs and kroxigors have difference strenght and weaknesses. Ideally you'd want a flank charge on knights or remove monsters from the board with kroxigors

A flank charge on those knights is easier said then done First of all, your opponent has to field at least a unit of knights In my opinion, kroxigors are situational. They can be brilliant, but an ancient steg can adept to many situation and its more universal. Even it is not in combat, it can shoot, ergo it always does something, while kroxigors 'just' fight in melee. I tend to build my list to be as universal as it can be, to be able to fight anything.

 

[laribold]

But with decent movement stats (and careful/skillful deployment) Krox can quite conceivably get a flank charge on a big block of s3/4 infantry. And they really can chew through most infantry. A unit of 6 (say 5 remaining) can conceivably kill 8-12 infantry after Pred Fighter and Stomps come into effect. My Krox particularly like chewing their way through Skaven. S3 really is a pretty low threat to Krox in my experience.

And because of their situational match up at times, they are one of the last things I deploy so I can pair them off against knights/monsters etc... and keep them clear of GW elven elites (which they hate...)

 

[Pinktaco]

A flank charge on those knights is easier said then done First of all, your opponent has to field at least a unit of knights In my opinion, kroxigors are situational. They can be brilliant, but an ancient steg can adept to many situation and its more universal. Even it is not in combat, it can shoot, ergo it always does something, while kroxigors 'just' fight in melee. I tend to build my list to be as universal as it can be, to be able to fight anything.

True, but I'd still wager that most armies field either a monster(s), knights, chariots etc that the kroxgors can easily tackle.

Anyway I'll be trying out a unit of 4 kroxigors and see how they work out. One of the theoretical good things with a small box of kroxies are that they are more anonymouse than the big hulking ancient stegadon. People fear that. They don't do that so much with kroxigors. I find that to be potentially important because it give the kroxigors some more flexibiliy. At least theoretically.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Well I have several...but not so many of these other things. Do the CSkinks just move up near the cannon and try to dart the crew? (Seems like a dwarf cannon crew, and a couple of engineer could hold their own against the CSkinks in HtH...)

Yup, poison shots are the strategy with Chameleon Skinks. Toughness 7 is meaningless against poison. As long as you have enough space to scout your Chameleon skinks, they are ideal warmachine hunters.

They can be brilliant, but an ancient steg can adept to many situation and its more universal. Even it is not in combat, it can shoot, ergo it always does something, while kroxigors 'just' fight in melee. I tend to build my list to be as universal as it can be, to be able to fight anything.

Precisely. In an all comers list, they have more that they can do... more good match ups, more roles and more versatility.

 

[Pinktaco]

One thing I think We all should remember is that it's fine we have different peperspectives on what defines a good unit, however, by using either a steg or kroxigors we're moving away from what makes our army competitive, unfortunately. Neither option are optimal to begin with, the way I see it, especially big monsters in cannon heavy metas =]

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

One thing I think We all should remember is that it's fine we have different peperspectives on what defines a good unit, however, by using either a steg or kroxigors we're moving away from what makes our army competitive, unfortunately. Neither option are optimal to begin with, the way I see it, especially big monsters in cannon heavy metas =]

Can't argue with that. Which is sad, it would be fun to run a list of big dinosaurs and Kroxigor while remaining competitive. As it stands, or competitive lists are confined to a mix of Slanns, Old Bloods, Scar-Vets, Skinks, Temple Guard and Salamanders.