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AoS Let's talk about nerfs and buffs from 3.0

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by The Tipsy Dragon, Jun 16, 2021.

  1. The Tipsy Dragon
    Jungle Swarm

    The Tipsy Dragon New Member

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    Would love to hear peoples option in a list format of what got nerfed. I'll update this post with all the nerfs as people contribute.


    Nerfs:
    • Skinks now can only be brought in 30 model size?
    • Single dice trigger rule? (Skink priest and Starpriest combo)
    • No run and retreat
    • Kroak point hike

    Buffs:
    • Dinos are better from monster abilities
     
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  2. ArtoriusaurusRex
    Temple Guard

    ArtoriusaurusRex Well-Known Member

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    Buff:

    • Our units can now inflict additional mortal wounds on hits *and* wounds of 6 with a Priest and Starpriest. Few can replicate this
     
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  3. Tyranitar
    Ripperdactil

    Tyranitar Well-Known Member

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    The new command point system seems like a big nerf to us since overall we relied on stacking buffs onto our otherwise mediocre units. Koatl's claw especially, as now the general with the dominant predator command trait is only able to issue a single command ability per phase, as well as Thunder Lizard only being able to use the TL CA once per turn
     
  4. Blitzkriyg
    Temple Guard

    Blitzkriyg Well-Known Member

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    What combo do these models give that affect the same dice roll?
     
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  5. Dread Saurian
    Salamander

    Dread Saurian Well-Known Member

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    Buff. I'm a Totem now so I can buff myself
     
  6. Lambs and Lions
    Cold One

    Lambs and Lions Active Member

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    Numbers wise the combo is not great. Skinks hit on a 5+ (4+ with buff) 60 shots with mortals on 6's is 10 MWs (this is good). After that you end the attack sequence for those attacks, meaning you have 10 hits (20 with buffs) if you are looking for 6's to wound you will only get 1 or 2 more MWs (3 or 4 with buffs). But those 1 or 2 mortal wounds could easily just be normal wounds failed from a failed save, they really aren't that much stronger.
     
  7. MackiMac
    Ripperdactil

    MackiMac Well-Known Member

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    The attack sequence does not end, so it should be on average 15 MWs. That sound pretty good to me :)
     
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  8. Lambs and Lions
    Cold One

    Lambs and Lions Active Member

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    Don't know why I thought the attack sequence ended, starpriest is one of the exceptions to the rule and I know that...

    The combo does look pretty good, the prayer roll for curse can be a little unreliable but still it looks good. We will have to see how the skink priest's abilities and prayers work, startstone staff is not a prayer but seems a lot like a prayer.
     
  9. Vexcor
    Kroxigor

    Vexcor Well-Known Member

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    About Kroak:
    With the new rules can you buff him +1 to cast with a banner or not because he already has +2 on his warscroll?
     
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  10. xoid
    Terradon

    xoid Well-Known Member

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    You should be able to, to-hit, and to-wound, are the only things limited to +/-1, and then save is limited to +1.
     
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  11. Vexcor
    Kroxigor

    Vexcor Well-Known Member

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    I feel better now :D
     
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  12. Lambs and Lions
    Cold One

    Lambs and Lions Active Member

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    So the new battalions are a nice buff to us. Many skink lists did not take a battalion and the warlord battalion is pretty but free to take (maybe twice if you run a stegadon/carnasaur hero) so that is a free enhancement which is nice. Ward save artifact is pretty strong.
     
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  13. Jason839
    Bastiladon

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    TL would trump core rules right? Wasnt there an FAQ that says Battletome trumps Core rules? Battletome trumps core rules and GHB trumps battletome?
     
  14. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    remember getting curse off requires you to be within 9" of a enemy unit that you want to use it on in your hero phase. this must be done with a very fragile hero without any one just moving out of range.
     
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  15. Zhalfirim
    Skink

    Zhalfirim Member

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    I would say the old lists will be generally weaker due to no buff stacking and problems with coherence. I would say Koatls Claw will face most of the problems. Thunder Lizards lost the access to great Thunderquake battalion, it is not possible to stack buffs on the Stegadons or Bastiladons anymore to increase their effectiveness. Not feeling great about the changes, to be honest, but we will see how other armies are fairing. But as an army with concept of having weak stats/warscrolls with a lot of of possible buffs it does not look that great.

    From Coalesced point of view, I think the new Kroak will be staple, due to offering good amount of CPs and giving us access to a lot of mortal wounds. With unit champions getting the possibility to buff their units, we will be able to use all the CPs and when going wide, buff more units at the same time. So I expect to go little bit wider than before.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
  16. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    Nerfs

    - New dice modifiers rules. Not only +1/-1 (we had a lot of stuff that could stack +1 to hit/save) but there's no more minimum of 1 on dice roll, so bastiladon's 1+ save is not as good as it was. Skinks are stuck with 5+ save now;

    - No way to stack command abilities. Saurus lists really relied on this, especially in Koatl's Claw. Now the worst constellation is nerfed even harder. TL suffered from this too, but to lesser extent. No more double-tapping two bastiladons, but that's it.

    - Deciding to use at the double before the roll. However, with lots of CP I feel we won't hesitate to use it. We love run+charge;

    - New coherency. Especially hard hit for saurus. But the new editions seems to be designed about buffing Lumineth and destroying Saurus;

    - Reinforced units. We really liked large units. Not only it limits our battlelines, but you simply won't have enough reinforcement slots to increase hunting packs, kroxigors, terradons or chameleons;

    - New 18 wounds stat is very bad for kroak, since he loses look out. cover and cannot garrison anymore;

    - All out attack and all out defense now gives +1 instead of rerolls, which we already had tons of;

    - Miscasts. I hated this mechanic in 40k and now we have this one too. It punishes units for what they are designed to do. Absolutely stupid, if you ask me. Probablity of Kroak being slain by own miscast is absurdly low... but never zero;

    - New mystic shield and arcane bolt. No more shooting something reliably with d3 mws with kroak. No more reroll 1's for bastiladons, etc.

    - Divine wrath. Just because miscasts are not enough;

    - Loss of warscroll battalions in matched play hurts saurus and mosnters;

    Buffs

    - Lots of CP. Our Coalesced armies suffered from lack of CP, and you had to take Kroak because of his CP generation to take what you want.

    - Ability to command to own squad will help skinks by a lot. Larger ranges in general is also good. I prefere wholly within 12 to within 6, especially with new coherency. And I hope that Dread Saurian Totema won't be FAQed just for fun;

    - Heroic actions are great for us. More CP, healing slann and carnosaurs (too unreliable for stega heroes, unfortunately), finest our is great for reactinary defense, when you feel your important hero will be focused. Also, nothing says that Finest Hour does not affect mounts;

    - Redeploy will help us to stop enemy charges/shooting and we will, most likely, have CP for it;

    - Unleash hell is great for venomous skinks and salamanders;

    - All out attack and all out defense allows us to retain bonuses on multiple units and stack modifiers to ignore negatives;

    - New mystic shield and arcane bolt. Multiple accessable +1 to save will lead us to multiple pseudo-invulnerable saves. And now you can hold arcane bolt until you move/charge/get charged, increasing its threat range. More damage in the face is also nice;

    - New prayers. Our Priests will love them a lot. 6+ ward without astrolith, healing, curse, banishing invocations. If Starstone staff becomes a prayer too, it is both buff and nerf;

    - Monstrous rampages. Nothing to add here;

    - New core battalions finally allow us to low drop our army and easy access to second artefact for any constellation;

    - Universal Enhancements. All types of enhancements looks very interesting. I can see High Priest trait to be used a lot in thunder lizard for reliable prayers. Amulet of Destiny allows us to make a Stonehorne out of Bastiladon or Carnosaur. Ghost-mist can give additional protection from shooting for our heroes. Both Heal and Curse are very interesting for priest. Finally, we don't need to roll for triumph any more and can chose one for free, or even too, if we badly want to.

    - New Mystical terrain rules allow us to get +1 to chanting rolls, making priests very reliable.

    My thoughts on winners and losers of units list:

    Winners

    Slann
    Oldblood on Carno
    Sunblood
    Scar-Veteran on Carno
    Preist
    Starpriest
    Stegadons
    EotG
    Chief on Stegadon

    Stayed the same or sidegrade

    Kroak
    Scar-Veteran on CO
    Astrolith Bearer
    Starseer
    Oracle
    Skinks
    Salamanders
    Kroxigor

    Losers

    Guard
    Knights
    Chameleon skinks
    Razordons
    Bastiladons
    Terradons (chief)

    Absolute losers


    Oldblood on foot
    Eternity warden
    Warriors
    Ripperdactyls (chief)


    As you can see, numbers of pros and cons are very close. Same with winning and losing units. So, I don't think that we will be much weaker, but we are certainly will be very different and our place in meta will mostly be defined by new point costs and how much other armies benifit/lost from new edition. I can see us struggle against high save armies/hero snipers, but we still will be great in monster mash/objective control.

    However, you can notice, that without a couple of exceptions, our mediocre or weak units became even worse, while good units stayed the same or great winners.

    GW is talking much about diversity in the new edition, but the effect qute the opposite. We could experiment with builds before (what if I take 3 razordons instead of salamanders and overbuff them with all possible abilities? How hard a huge pack of ripprdactyls will hit?), but now we want to take our best stuff and tap our best command abilities on them. Why bother with taking 3 more ripperdactyls, when you can make a unit of two salamanders? Why take chameleon skinks, when you need a skink cohort? And plenty of similar examples.

    Overall, I don't even feel that new edition is better it feels just different. It resolves some problems and bring new ones, it gives new possiblities but takes away quite a lot. Can't wait for GHB to finally try it out.
     
  17. Kakalou1
    Saurus

    Kakalou1 Member

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    According to me Coaslesced become better than Starborn with the +1 attack on jaw and -1 degat which is still great against a lot of armies. Bastilladon are still a big thing to handle with +1 easy to give, Trog are more resilient, Dread more reliable and Carno more dangerous
    Quick questions : do we keep the +2 wound on stegadon in Thunderlezard as we play them as battleline ?
    Can we use one cp to shoot twice with basti and one pc to use twice eotg !

    Salamander by 2 maximum and skink max 30 is a slap but we were too strong against the majority. I am happy to give this spot to the lumineth for example. We still have some card to play with invocations and téléportation with this coven and as Always depend on the ennemy
     
  18. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    over all very solid critique but i will continue to stomp this when ever it comes up.
    the chance of Kroak killing himself with a bad cast is 0.00013%. this means of kroak was to cast all his spells every round for all 5 rounds without being killed AND you where playing 1 game a day every day. it would take you more than a year on average to have this happen. since most people do not play every day but more once or twice a week this drops to once every five years with constant casting and all games making it to turn 5 with kroak alive. if you realise that is never going to happen it gets even more unlikely.
    this is not a problem yes it will happen to some people some times that is how probability works but it is not something rational people even bother to consider.
     
  19. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    yes
    no the rule of one now applies to CA and changing the target does not change that.

    2 at best salamanders might be getting the single key word
     
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  20. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but the fact that it is possible is ridiculous.

    After 3 years of playing seraphon I never rolled triple 6 for EotG. But I am sure Kroak will be different in this regard...

    Anyway, I think that with a pack of guard and new abilites he will be more than OK. He can basically have 3++ (Gift from Heavens, All out Defense and Mystic Shield) with Guard protecting him from alpha-strikes, etc. The only army which can kill him quickly is lumineth, and that's the main problem, IMO. They have tons of ranged mortals. You will have to have a huge block of guard to protect kroak from them.
     

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