Discussion Lizardmen History Timeline

[Carnikang]

@Warden , to be honest, it's an assumption o mine, and others. Dracothian led Sigmar to the creation of the new realms, and also led th Slann to these realms. The fact that there are parallels usually means something when it comes to GW fluff.

Of course, its not set in stone yet.

 

[spawning of Bob]

You are doing a fine thing here,@Warden . It mirrors a project I've wanted to do for a while but have had time or energy to start. In short, I would like to have brief histories / synopses of significant events from the Old Ones' first transforming of the WHFB, cross referenced to GW canon where applicable, but also to works by authors here. And maps etc.

Why? Because a new generation of scaly brethren have been spawned in starlight and may not otherwise know the richness of their flesh and blood forebears' legacy.

 

[Warden]

You are doing a fine thing here,@Warden . It mirrors a project I've wanted to do for a while but have had time or energy to start. In short, I would like to have brief histories / synopses of significant events from the Old Ones' first transforming of the WHFB, cross referenced to GW canon where applicable, but also to works by authors here. And maps etc.

Why? Because a new generation of scaly brethren have been spawned in starlight and may not otherwise know the richness of their flesh and blood forebears' legacy.

Glad I am not the only one who thought of doing a crazy project like this. A more detailed history would definitely be useful for this forum, especially since the Old World is gone and only new stuff is going to be printed in the future. The older books are only going to get rarer and harder to find if you don't already own them.

 

[Aginor]

Thank you very much for doing this!
I know next to nothing about the Warhammer lore (and to be honest I dislike a lot of the lore I do know) so I am curious.

What really crushes me is that the Seraphon are not real. I could live with the world being gone and everyone now living on their own planet or something. But I would really like to see lore telling us about new spawning pools appearing in the Slann's new home. Having real Lizards and beasts again. That would be SO much better IMO.

Anyway, great work with that time line and calendar. Can't wait to see even more stuff added.

 

[Carnikang]

Thank you very much for doing this!
I know next to nothing about the Warhammer lore (and to be honest I dislike a lot of the lore I do know) so I am curious.

What really crushes me is that the Seraphon are not real. I could live with the world being gone and everyone now living on their own planet or something. But I would really like to see lore telling us about new spawning pools appearing in the Slann's new home. Having real Lizards and beasts again. That would be SO much better IMO.

Anyway, great work with that time line and calendar. Can't wait to see even more stuff added.

Well, there are bits that state Beasts the Slann create continue to live after the Seraphon depart. Other than that, they leave it fairly vauge.
For all intents and purposes, these Lizards ARE real when in battle, their old selves coming through, the memories of them bringing forth the ferocity and fury only a Lizardman can have to bear against Chaos. I'm hoping that when they hopefully redo the Battletome, we get more lore on our scaly friends.

 

[Qupakoco]

@Warden, I notice in my 5th edition book that a few of the dates conflict with what you have shown in the OP. In the first years it mentions basically the same things as you but in a different order. Summarized below:

1. Itza Founded
2. First Spawning
3. 1st Spawning made Itza the center of the geomantic web (inferred)
4. Second Spawning
5. 2nd Spawning corrects the orbit of the world.
6. Saurus are Spawned and begin building.
7. Skinks Spawned
8. Kroxigor Spawned
9. 5000 years after the initial coming, Itza was complete.
10. Xlanhaupec Founded
11. Tlax Founded
12. Third Spawning
13. Tlaxtlan Founded
14. Quetza Founded
15. Zlatlan Founded
16. New Ones Spawned (Ancestors of Humans, Elves, and Dwarves)
17. Warp Gate needed correction
18. Fourth Spawning
19. 4th Spawning corrected the Warp Gate
20. Chaqua and Axlotl Founded
21. Oxyl and Xhotl Founded (presumably Krog-Gar was created here)
22. Hexoatl and Xahutec Founded
23. Tlanxla and Pahuax Founded
24. World Pond created and continents moved
25. Warp Gate needed more correction
26. Fifth Spawning created in "great haste"
27. The Polar Warp Gate Collapse, aka The Great Catastrophe

BTW, I most certainly do not have a .pdf copy of the 5th edition book. But if you PM me I can probably reproduce the whole thing from memory...

 

[The Sauric Ace]

I like how zero is simply just mentioned as yet another symbol, when it really altered quite a bit how maths was done here in our world. I'm no historian, but did the Incan got a zero. I believe we got it from Indian scholars in the 14th century....and be we I mean Europeans or well, any one using the Arabic( Indian ) numbers
Wonder if the lizards got notion of more advanced symbols, I mean they must have Pi, right? How about e? Do they have calculus like maths, limit laws? Notion of different kinds of infinity... the list goes on

 

[Warden]

@Warden, I notice in my 5th edition book that a few of the dates conflict with what you have shown in the OP. In the first years it mentions basically the same things as you but in a different order. Summarized below:

1. Itza Founded
2. First Spawning
3. 1st Spawning made Itza the center of the geomantic web (inferred)
4. Second Spawning
5. 2nd Spawning corrects the orbit of the world.
6. Saurus are Spawned and begin building.
7. Skinks Spawned
8. Kroxigor Spawned
9. 5000 years after the initial coming, Itza was complete.
10. Xlanhaupec Founded
11. Tlax Founded
12. Third Spawning
13. Tlaxtlan Founded
14. Quetza Founded
15. Zlatlan Founded
16. New Ones Spawned (Ancestors of Humans, Elves, and Dwarves)
17. Warp Gate needed correction
18. Fourth Spawning
19. 4th Spawning corrected the Warp Gate
20. Chaqua and Axlotl Founded
21. Oxyl and Xhotl Founded (presumably Krog-Gar was created here)
22. Hexoatl and Xahutec Founded
23. Tlanxla and Pahuax Founded
24. World Pond created and continents moved
25. Warp Gate needed more correction
26. Fifth Spawning created in "great haste"
27. The Polar Warp Gate Collapse, aka The Great Catastrophe

BTW, I most certainly do not have a .pdf copy of the 5th edition book. But if you PM me I can probably reproduce the whole thing from memory...

I did not find this list in the 5th edition book, was this a list you were able to put together through reading the fluff pages? If that is the case I need to do a more thorough read. But I do like the level of detail and can make some changes, overall this seems to be fairly similar to the rest of the fluff and is undoubtable what the later stuff is based upon.

Further question: anyone know if there was a 4th ed. lizardmen book?

I like how zero is simply just mentioned as yet another symbol, when it really altered quite a bit how maths was done here in our world. I'm no historian, but did the Incan got a zero. I believe we got it from Indian scholars in the 14th century....and be we I mean Europeans or well, any one using the Arabic( Indian ) numbers
Wonder if the lizards got notion of more advanced symbols, I mean they must have Pi, right? How about e? Do they have calculus like maths, limit laws? Notion of different kinds of infinity... the list goes on

Always did find it fascinating. I don't know much about the Incans either, but at least according to this article it states both the Mayans and the Babylonians developed independent concepts of zero, as well as potentially the ancient Indians from whom the western world's arithmetic gets the concept.

 

[Bowser]

I believe they weren't in 4th. Slann was third and then fifth edition was Lizardmen

 

[Tepec-Inzi]

Hello there!

After a decade of not bothering much of what happened to our beloved cold-blooded Saurians, I've been looking for the End Times and Age of Sigmar fluff quite a lot recently out of curiosity. Before that, I needed to refresh my memories and these forums are just amazing, thanks a lot for this very complete compilation!

After reading this topic, I thought some people might be interested in the following list of mentions of the Seraphons in the AoS books I could get my hands on, and as I could not find these references somewhere else (I may be ill informed on good resources), I'm currently trying to organizing this up. BUT as

1. English is not my native language (Saurian is, of course),
   
2. I did not find the time to read all of this yet,

it may lack some interesting elements, but I'm putting what I already understood:

• In The Realmgates War, the Seraphon are shortly mentionned as the saviors of Sigmar's army during the war that "raged accross the bon savannahs of Bagrhati".
• In The Realmgate Wars 02 - The Balance of Power, Mage-Priest Xen’phantica and his Seraphons of the "Chotec's Burning Serpent" host come to rescue "the army of Sylvaneth and Stormcast Eternals that guarded the soulpod of Queen Alarielle" in the Realm of Ghyran. Fighting against the Khornate daemons, there's quite a lot of events mentioned, where Lord Xen'phantica apparently always saved the day. There's also the following prophety: "[Lord Xen'phantica] awaits the Great Conjunction, the spiralling of the stars that signifies the Final Battle. Only then will he be reunited with all of his estranged spawnmates." => quite a lot of fluff about this Slann, his seraphons and so on.

• In The Realmgate Wars 03 – Godbeasts, the same Lord Xen'phantica fights for the Orb Infernia ("a baleful eye watching the struggles of mortals below") in the Ashlands. He defeats the daemons repeatydly, notably during the War of the Tetrarchs with the help of his OldBlood Saurus Klaq-tor, riding a ferovious Carnosaur, and his Skink Starpriest Izekto. However he is eventually slained by Khul the Conqueror. It is then said that "a strand of fate snapped as Lord Xen’phantica died. Across the realms, a thousand slann felt as if a piece of their souls had perished. ". => quite a lot of fluff as well.
  
• In The Realmgate Wars 04 – All-Gates, while the Chaos forces attempted to break into the unguarded gates of Azyr, several Slann starmasters call their seraphons and keep the enemy at bay before vanishing just as they appeared.
• In Dominion of Chaos, Starmaster Azqualta lead his host to defeat Tzeentch servant Xergorn Ninefates, into the Blacksplinter Range's 'Shimmering Fist' volcano. The Chaos sorcerer was looking for the artefact known as the Numinous Occulum, and while he indeed found it, he has no other choice than destroying it to harm the Slann and escape from the seraphons.
  
• In Malign Portents - Dying star short story, Skink Priest Maq’uat, while observing the stars from the Stellarium of the temple-ship of Aximahotl, perceives a terrible threat as stars were withering in the void. Maq'uat finds his master Lord Xuatamos in an agonizing state, his face marked with blotches of purple-black bruises. The Skink priest then rushes to the spawning chambers, kept closed by Saurus SunBlood Narok-Gar whom, after refusing to open the passage to Ma'quat, hears out the menace and helps the Skink Priest to accelerate the cycle of spawning. Seraphons birthed instantly, and Narok-Gar summon his starhosts to go and strike in the Amethyst Realm. => many, many things interesting in this short story!

There's obviously -as usual in AoS- no dates with all of this, yet most of it can be related to major events (the Realmgates War and Malign Portents).

If you need the sources to get more details, feel free to PM me (or tell me if I can quote them more extensively, but I'm pretty sure it would be against the rules).

 

[Tepec-Inzi]

Sorry for the double-post, but it seems I can't edit my previous post (nor any other as it seems), but I wanted to add the following notes:

[Edit] I just re-read the Seraphon Battletome and found some "events/tales" that are not listed in the previous posts; I compiled the whole texts, but to make it short:

• It appears that, before (or during) the Age of Chaos, when the myth of the seraphon starts spreading accros the Mortal Realms, 1. Toc-choa the Bringer of Celestial Dawn vanquishes a horde of Khornate chariot riders with the cosmic light of a hundred Engines of the Gods, 2.Qualaqal the Master of the Seven Falling Stars lays siege to the bubonic Dreadhold of Scaramath; 3. Kurkori the Dreaming Seer of the Nightmare War slains the great daemon Balagrex on the shores of the ever-burning sea. It is relevant to notice that during that same war, it was only by the celestial light of the Astrolith icon that the seraphon are able to ascend the steps of the Midnight Bastion, the Astrolith sustaining them even as the necromantic stone saps their strength.
• Before the Temple of the Dead Gods events, and most probably at the beginning at the Age of Chaos, Starmaster Zectoka is present at the Dreaming City and the beginning of the Days of Blood, where he witnesses eight thousand murders.
  
• Around the same period, terrifying monuments of the Dark Gods are cast into ruin by the seraphon: The Pillars of Nightmares, hung with the gilded skulls of a thousand offerings, the thrice-forged Wheel of Bones, crafted from the screaming corpses of the peoples of the Shadowloom Vale, or the Blood Gallows, formed from a thousand beating hearts.
• At some unknown dates, the Eternity Wardens 1. Xoat’ar, Shield of the Azure City, choked a Lord of Change with his own broken body to save his master, 2. Atlor-ke the Unbowed stood sentinel for a hundred mortal lifetimes over the remains of his master Nohekal, until the slann’s magic finally faded.
• During the battle of The Sundering of the Vale of Statues, the slann Lunqu was spared only when his Saurus Guard formed a dome of shields overhead, their locked arms saving him from the descending foot of the Brazen Gargant.
• During the Obsidian War, Saurus Guard Yanquala duels the Twin-souled Sorcerer of Nizt for five hundred seasons even though his slann master was long dead.

 

[Warden]

@Tepec-Inzi I really like what you have written here! I will go over it again and add it to the AOS timeline.

There's obviously -as usual in AoS- no dates with all of this, yet most of it can be related to major events (the Realmgates War and Malign Portents).

This is probably the biggest struggle I have had with the new lore. Without any dates, or even a frame of reference to judge when events happen in relation to each other, it is very hard to nail down when things actually happen, how long they take, or what things happen simultaneously.

• Questions on the Realmgate Wars Events: do all these events happen sequentially (1 to 4) or are they all happening at the same time? What prompted you to place them in this order? Are they listed in the order they happened or possibly even order of publication? Also are the Realmgate Wars over at this point, or is just the first phase begun?

I have noticed that GW may be taking a "privateer press" approach to there lore, as in advancing the story by killing off characters, allowing certain factions to gain/loose land, or for other changes to occur. I think Malign portents is one of those events? Does it occur after the Realmgate Wars are complete, or are they the next chapter of the conflict?

Two more things I am curious about from your posts: is there any more information in the battletome or are they just namedrops never mentioned again?

• The Sundering of the Vale of Statues- Sounds like a valley filled with ancient Stela. Also wondering what a Brazen Gargant is (image makes me think of the current Giant model, made out of bronze... doesn't seem that threatening especially against a Slann much less a full unit of temple guard).
• The Obsidian War- cool sounding name, evokes the material used by the ancient Mayans/Aztecs in their weaponry. Any other information in the book concerning the epic 500-year campaign between the Saurus Yanquala and the (Twin-souled) Sorcerer of Nizt? And what is Nizt?

 

[Warden]

In Malign Portents - Dying star short story, Skink Priest Maq’uat, while observing the stars from the Stellarium of the temple-ship of Aximahotl, perceives a terrible threat as stars were withering in the void. Maq'uat finds his master Lord Xuatamos in an agonizing state, his face marked with blotches of purple-black bruises. The Skink priest then rushes to the spawning chambers, kept closed by Saurus SunBlood Narok-Gar whom, after refusing to open the passage to Ma'quat, hears out the menace and helps the Skink Priest to accelerate the cycle of spawning. Seraphons birthed instantly, and Narok-Gar summon his starhosts to go and strike in the Amethyst Realm. => many, many things interesting in this short story!

Also cool story here... is there a follow up? Curious how it ended with the star-hosts now being led by a Skink Priest, following the lead left by his dead Slann overlord.

Wish the saurus didn't come across as being so... slow

 

[Tepec-Inzi]

Hey @Warden !

To answer your questions:

• The Sundering of the Vale of Statues and The Obsidian War are just very shortly mentioned in the Seraphon Battletome, page 31. So there's yet nothing more than this paragraphs.
  
• Malign Portents - Dying Star - I'm not sure yet there's something more about it as I have yet to get my hands on Malign Portents book. BUT I forgot to mention a "chapter" of the Malign Portents campaign, in Chapter 2 -

 

[Tepec-Inzi]

Sorry I pressed the wrong key and now I can't edit my post, so just to finish what I was saying:

In Malign Portents Chapter 2 - Ash and Flame , basically Lord Xen'phantica is brought back to life by the Order Grand Alliance to keep fighting against his nemesis.

As soon as I can edit my posts, I'll have to correct some stories I misunderstood when I first compiled them, but to make it short: most of what I compiled is "mentions of epic battles" but rarely goes beyond a paragraph or two. Only stories in the Realmgates War contains more fluff.

AlsoI think you're right: Games Workshop apparently makes the backstory move forward during those campaigns I have a hard time understanding the way they happen, but Malign Portents seemed truly like a major event of the Realms, so I have to dig deeper on that matter.

 

[Warden]

As soon as I can edit my posts, I'll have to correct some stories I misunderstood when I first compiled them, but to make it short: most of what I compiled is "mentions of epic battles" but rarely goes beyond a paragraph or two. Only stories in the Realmgates War contains more fluff.

AlsoI think you're right: Games Workshop apparently makes the backstory move forward during those campaigns I have a hard time understanding the way they happen, but Malign Portents seemed truly like a major event of the Realms, so I have to dig deeper on that matter.

Makes sense... same issues as before: without knowing when in relation to each other these events took place, or how long they took, I have a hard time organizing my calendar into dates that make sense

Out of all the races I think it is safe to assume that the lizards, safe in their flying temple fortresses, could have a "complete" record of days gone past, even if the skinks can't actually read the record. Unlike the rest of the races within the realms, who have giant breaks between them and the old lore. Next best candidate would be the dwarfs, but they don't exist the same anymore, or the elfs, who also exist in the new lore very differently than in the old.

 

[Galen]

Next best candidate would be the dwarfs, but they don't exist the same anymore, or the elfs, who also exist in the new lore very differently than in the old.

That's not entirely correct. The duardin of the Mortal Realms are the direct descendants of survivors from Mallus. The Dwarfs of Zhufbar are mentioned in Spear of Shadows escaping the Old World:

Jorik nodded. ‘An old clan, ours. Venerable even when the world was young. We dug our way out of one world and into another, ahead of an all-consuming fire, or so the story goes. We left a lake enclosed by mountains, and came to new waters and new mountains. Formed a new clan from the ruins of the old.’

Phil Kelly also mentions in an introductory video to AoS,

, that Mallus was not entirely annhilated, some parts of it survived, and some characters clung to existence, either by arcane means or being saved by their gods. As to who exactly survived, it's mentioned in the new AoS core book (pg 34) that:

The natives (of the Mortal Realms) had no knowledge of the dieties of Chaos, those fell entities that sought to force their way into the waking worlds; those exceptional few who had survived the destruction of the world-that-was kept silent, never speaking of their traumas lest they lend them strength

Yet earlier in the same book, pg 19, it states that:

The breaking of the world-that-was, the Great Victory of the Chaos Gods, the End Times - that forgotten epoch has many names. Only the gods of yore and the inhuman slann remember it vividly, and the truth of its demise is buried in the dust of history

A little later in the same passage:

It is said Sigmar was awakened in the void by the Great Drake. Introduced by that zodiacal godbeast to the Eight Realms, he embarked upon many great voyages of discovery, exploring each in turn. He journeyed long and far, finding enclaves of natives and overcoming the monstrous beasts that preyed upon them. Sigmar taught the scattered tribes of mankind many things, and soon they worshipped him above all others

And on the other gods:

Guided by inner knowledge and fate itself, Sigmar located and awakened other gods - those he recognised from his former life - with mixed consequences

From this, we know that when Sigmar arrives in the Mortal Realms, there's individuals of the various Fantasy races already living there. Their gods don't create them, because they're dormant when Sigmar arrives. Some have memories of the world-that-was, and we know some managed to escape the destruction of Mallus. Even the aelves aren't all destroyed, because Tyrion and Teclis, after they're awakened, find a few in Azyr. It's only after that discovery that they hunt down Slaanesh and imprison him, then extract aelf souls to remake their people. Yet only the Slann and the gods remember the world-that-was clearly.

So there likely were some individuals in the Mortal Realms from its earliest days, and some record could have been written down. The trouble of course is that then you have the Age of Chaos and everything gets essentially reset. There's also the slight matter of time; no-where is it stated how long it takes the Mortal Realms to come together, but it has to happen after the destruction of Mallus, and it's unlikely to have happened overnight. So the various individuals that escaped couldn't have instantly ended up in the Mortal Realms upon leaving Mallus. The possibilities I can see are as follows:

a) Pocket dimensions. We know that Lileath had her own dimension where she was storing Bretonnian souls for her grand plan. Powerful mages or gods could have used such places to shelter from the destruction of Mallus before escaping to the Mortal Realms, once they came together.

b) Unconciousness. We know the various gods were all dormant, including Sigmar himself, long after the Mortal Realms came into being. Sigmar is revived by Dracothion, and Sigmar then revives the other gods. So its possible that all the survivors of the world-that-was were all held essentially in stasis until the Mortal Realms coalesced together.

c) Elemental. Because the Mortal Realms are made of the essence of Mallus, it's possible that the races of Mallus are part of that essence. Hence, when the Realms coalesce together, the various races are brought forth as well, in a more or less primal state. This would tie into the souls of the dead from Mallus being linked to the Mortal Realms. Given that representatives of the major races were all linked to the Winds of Magic in the End Times, this is possible. Perhaps because the Lizardmen were alien creatures of the Old Ones, they were not part of the essence of Mallus. Or perhaps because the Slann fled before the Winds of Magic were bound to the Incarnates, their race was never bound.

The one exception to all of this is the Slann. They are awake from the moment they leave Mallus and they're still awake through the whole Age of Myth, Chaos and Sigmar. They're the only ones who could have observed everything that happened in the intervening period. Trouble is, they only show up after the Mortal Realms have come into being, because it's Dracothion who notices the starships and makes contact. When he sees a vision of the destruction of Mallus in the minds of the Slann, the drake cries out, and the Slann follow the call and end up in Azyr.

 

[Warden]

All very good points @Galen , thank you for the breakdown!

By races with a "complete record of days" I should have specified a bit more. None of the old warhammer races had a 100% written history during the Warhammer days, as things in the far past are often shrouded/turned into myths, or just forgotten. True the Slann were the only ones "awake" for the whole period, hence they could have the most complete "record" of the intervening times, but would a being thousands of years old really care about mundane year-to-year or decade-to-decade details? Probably not... that is why they have skink underlings!!! (who due to limited minds/experience, might not actually understand what they were writing down, much less what is important to their masters).

Same with the (new) elf gods and the immortal lords of the realms, they individually know the information, but they wouldn't be likely to take the time to write it all down (except maybe Teclis), they got underlings for that, many of which (like the skinks) do not have memories that go back eons worth of time, and therefore like the skinks get things wrong.

In thinking about the AOS fluff some more, does the realm of Sigmar have its own calendar that his underlings and the free peoples to use? That could be something that all the other warhammer races' calendars could measure off of, like the old Imperial calendar in warhammer fantasy.

I am guessing the date could start from either the day Sigmar founded his realm in the Heavens realm, or the day he started the realmgate wars to retake the other realms from the chaos realms.