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8th Ed. Lizardmen redirect

M
Cold One

MOMUS

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Hey all
I was just wondering what other lizard players thoughts were on redirectors were.
In my lizardman army @3000pts i use a unit of ten skink cohorts, a jungle swarm and in a pinch a group of three terradons.

The jungle swarm is a bit naff but for 5pts more you can get a 10 skink cohort. These guys are great, i think maybe some of the best non-fyling redirectors in the game.

They are speedy, can shoot, have poison, a small footprint, can always stand and shoot and have an above average initiative.
For a redirect they have great threat range and damage potential.


Anybody else use these chaps as redirects?
 
skink skirmishers have far superior movement than skink cohorts, and i use them for that (among other things). they are a bit more expensive, but i couldnt imagine limiting the movement of my redirectos by taking away skirmish. i would probably use a single jungle swarm rather than a small skink cohort because of the mobility.

but to each his own i guess
 
Units of 5 Chameleon skinks and units of 3 Terradons are both fantastic harassers.

Remember that unless the opponent is frenzied or undead (terrible leadership) old school redirecting is impossible.

Because of the reform units get after running down a unit, a charge declared against a skirmisher only wastes a turn for the unit, rather than 1-2 turns of 7th edition (and exposing the units flank).

In 7th, a redirector could garuntee a flank charge. Now they merely garuntee a frontal charge on your terms.

Example: a units of knights moves to 14" in front of your Steg. You fly some Terradons (who possibly drop rocks in the same move) in front of the knights. You also move the Steg so it can't be overrun into and angle the steg it so the knights can't overrun out of its arc. Next turn the knights either charge the Terradons and get smashed by the Steg, or do nothing.

Personally I find it hilarious that you can force your opponent to do nothing. Chameleons and Terradons should remove the better part of the opponents shooting by turn 2, so any additional turn the opponent has to maneuvre before engaging is 40 more poison shots, 2 more salamander shots and another round of magic.
 
Lord Tsunami said:
skink skirmishers have far superior movement than skink cohorts, and i use them for that (among other things). they are a bit more expensive, but i couldnt imagine limiting the movement of my redirectos by taking away skirmish. i would probably use a single jungle swarm rather than a small skink cohort because of the mobility.

but to each his own i guess
Click to expand...

In my 3000pt list i value my skirmishers too much to have them simply as redirects, as i stated above i too use a single swarm. It beats the cohort on mobility slightly-being skirmish and having a smaller footprint. But it has no threat/annoyance value, a unit of cohorts can run into your face and shoot and then shoot again when you charge. If it gets ignored it can run about shooting, whereas a swarm is kinda helpless. (i would send it after warmachines but they should be long gone thanks to my chameleons/terradons)

kroxigor01 said:
Units of 5 Chameleon skinks and units of 3 Terradons are both fantastic harassers.

Remember that unless the opponent is frenzied or undead (terrible leadership) old school redirecting is impossible.

Because of the reform units get after running down a unit, a charge declared against a skirmisher only wastes a turn for the unit, rather than 1-2 turns of 7th edition (and exposing the units flank).

In 7th, a redirector could garuntee a flank charge. Now they merely garuntee a frontal charge on your terms.
Personally I find it hilarious that you can force your opponent to do nothing. Chameleons and Terradons should remove the better part of the opponents shooting by turn 2, so any additional turn the opponent has to maneuvre before engaging is 40 more poison shots, 2 more salamander shots and another round of magic.
Click to expand...

At 3000pts i also use two 5 man chameleon skink unit (plus a ten man unit) and 3 terradons.
The change in rules is why i think i prefer the cohort, you only get to waste a single turn and they get ~50pts. With a swarm you have nothing to show for it, with a cohort its 20 poison shots.
 
i think there might be a bit of confusion on what a redirector is.

in 7th edition it was very straight forward, but nowadays a "redirector" has nothing to do with a redirected charge.

the point is that you place your "redirector" in such a way that the enemy cant advance without charging it, but you face it so that a charge would expose the enemy flank. when the charge comes you HOLD (or stand and shoot ofc). you fight, you lose and you flee. now the enemy can chose between pursuing, taking him out of place, or doing a victory reform (unless he is frenzied *giggle*). most chose the victory reform, but that means they will have gotten basically nowhere that turn (and your redirector might even rally and come back for more). This way you slow down the enemies nasty units, so that you can kill his less nasty units with the rest of your army.

The reason i prefer skirmishers for this role is that they can act as a screen for your saurus in the early part of the battle, they can then shoot the enemy (i use javelins) whether they charge or not, and lastly and most importantly, they can angle themselves freely (since they are skirmishers) no matter what direction they have to move. you can really tailor the nastiest angle possible for the enemy. They are a bit expensive (80 points) but i am never disappointed in the investment.

there is not really any logic in the statement that you "value your skirmishers too much" for this, since they are core, and you can include any number you want. It is true that they cost 20-30 points extra per unit, and that is a sacrifice you have to account for. i personally find that their superior performance is worth the investment.

no unit meant for redirecting will ever "earn their points back" by killing stuff, but they will win you the battle instead. redirecting is one of the few arts that are still left to us in 8th edition, so use it, and become good at it and you will win most of your games thanks to it :)
 
Lord Tsunami said:
in 7th edition it was very straight forward, but nowadays a "redirector" has nothing to do with a redirected charge.

the point is that you place your "redirector" in such a way that the enemy cant advance without charging it, but you face it so that a charge would expose the enemy flank. when the charge comes you HOLD (or stand and shoot ofc). you fight, you lose and you flee. now the enemy can chose between pursuing, taking him out of place, or doing a victory reform (unless he is frenzied *giggle*). most chose the victory reform, but that means they will have gotten basically nowhere that turn (and your redirector might even rally and come back for more). This way you slow down the enemies nasty units, so that you can kill his less nasty units with the rest of your army.
Click to expand...
Exactly right.
 
I'm fairly new so this was an enlightening topic. Could you throw like 10 ranked skinks in front, stand and shoot and possibly kill a few with the poisoned javelins?
 
Lord Tsunami said:
i think there might be a bit of confusion on what a redirector is.

there is not really any logic in the statement that you "value your skirmishers too much" for this, since they are core, and you can include any number you want. It is true that they cost 20-30 points extra per unit, and that is a sacrifice you have to account for. i personally find that their superior performance is worth the investment.

no unit meant for redirecting will ever "earn their points back" by killing stuff, but they will win you the battle instead. redirecting is one of the few arts that are still left to us in 8th edition, so use it, and become good at it and you will win most of your games thanks to it :)
Click to expand...

No confusion.

I use a 10 skink cohort to run into the enemies face (at an angle), shoot and then stand and shoot when they charge. The difference is the cohorts can always shoot no matter how close they are thanks to quickfire.
I can do this far away from my battle line to 'turn stall' my opponent or close to my line for the flank charge.

Of course 10 skirmishers have more value than 10 cohorts, they are far more flexible in application, have a wider threat range and higher damage potential.
Using the skirmishers as a redirect is wasting the multiple shots they can be pumping out each turn.
 
Lord Tsunami said:
skirmishers can use javelins too... ;)
Click to expand...

so you can make the unit less offensive and cost more points, which will be going straight to the enemy anyway.
No thanks.
 
Good topic!

It seems we have three possible road bumps (as i call them in 8th). Cohort, skirmishers, and swarms.

I personally use cohorts due to their cheap points, and I find the lack of maneuverability isn't necessary as I know what I want to speed bump usually during deployment. I also like the "Quick to Fire" rule. I also invest in a musician.

Skirmishers I'm split on. I like the idea of increased damage output (for 20-30pts?), and the increased maneuverability. However, I have never used them lol. Can anyone give stories about how skirmishers made wins possible? I would love some feedback on them.

Swarms I have never used either. With the crumble rules on swarms can they even hold a unit for a turn anymore? I would actually be very interested in running two together, with hopes they would hold some unit in place for 2-3 turns. Anyone experience this kind of result using swarms?

Thanks!
 
I play a southlands army, so i use all three. :D

Cohorts as you said are very cheap, lack or skirmish movement isnt much of an issue as im playing with alot of units and i know when it comes to deplyment i will be able to drop them where i want.

Skirmishers are good, but i find the multi shot ability too good to waste on redirecting. I will use them for it if i need to but its a last resort.

Swarms i like as they are cheap and skirmish they also have the smallest base footprint, meaning they can squeeze into really annoying places. Yes they do die to just about anything but isnt that the point?
You run them up and place them so they are ~1" infront of a enemy unit. Place them so they are infront of the edge-most model in the enemy unit exposing their flank. When it comes to the enemies turn if they declare a charge they usually just move the unit forward, but as there will be more enemy models in your front arc than your flank the enemy unit will have to wheel around into your front facing.
Worst case scenario they destroy a 45pt unit and reform to face foward again, that whole turn they have moved about 2 inches. :)
Best case scenario they fluff their attacks and expose their flank or will waste another turn as they destroy and reform as above.
 
Instead of redirecting and handing points to opponents you could make units that can stand up to attackers. 3x5 chameleons will kill against warmahine armies or redirect that pesky deathstar army. Spend the rest on stuff that doesnt doesnt die... 2x26 saurus warriors n a lore of life army...
 
wbarobinson said:
Instead of redirecting and handing points to opponents you could make units that can stand up to attackers. 3x5 chameleons will kill against warmahine armies or redirect that pesky deathstar army. Spend the rest on stuff that doesnt doesnt die... 2x26 saurus warriors n a lore of life army...
Click to expand...

Well there are multiple things out there that will kill saurus straight up too. Also sometimes it is more effective to kill a unit via redirecting and flanking than in a direct engagement; or other times you are simply forced into such a situation. We have some pretty awesome flanking units to boot. A stegadon or skrox in the side will almost always cause quite an upset.
 
by sacrificing cheap units you do indeed hand the opponent VPs. however, it is wrong on the most basic level of strategy gaming to assume that these points are "free" (yes i know you dint say free anywhere, but this issue keeps bobbing up like one of those turds you cant manage to flush properly ;))

You sacrifice some points to get an advantage in positioning. If you can use two 70 point units of skinks to keep a 1000+ point death star pout of the battle your remaining 2350 points will crush his remaining 1500. the deathstar wins the "battle" with the skinks, but your army wins the "war". History is full of generals who could win battles but not wars, its just that they never became famous ;)
 
I can see the thought behind using more expensive screens to try to do more damage, but from my point of view/strategy, I have no problem feeding 55pt units (cohort+music) to gain tactical advantages. 55pts can force an enemy general to allocate shooting off saurus to deal with screens, cause multihundred point units to slow down or expose flanks, and the best part IMO is it causes more things for the enemy to think about. I don't know if it is a good thing to think about in terms of strategy, but I do think about the psychology of the game. I want to give my enemy lots to think about, lots of targets to shoot at, and lots of threats to deal with. Often they will make a mistake, and hopefully I will be in a position to capitalize on it!
 
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