8th Ed. Lizardmen top tier?

[Pofadder]

Hey,

Recently returned to the game of WHFB, after a long break. Been hitting alot of forums (including this one) and it seems that some people tend to think that Lizardmen is a top tier army next to the likes of Skaven and Dark Elves...

Do you guys agree? I have played a couple of games now in 8ed and feel we are still where we used to be, upper mid table, a balanced army with some fun choices and potentially strong magic.

In my games faced Demons, before redo, but guy at club welcomed me back to 8th with Epidemius, Great Unclean One, 38 bloodletters with Herald of Khorne etc and was blown away.(Though 5 poison wounds in 1 round with skinks was awesome on the Great Unclean One
Then faced W/ Elves, easy win..Then faced OK, took a win there. Last week new Chaos book ruined my plans with a 1st turn DP spawn, had 2 DP's keep my blocks busy for 3 turns... So I have had mixed success and I know its because I need to get into the swing of things again.

I know it depends on the general and we are not gimped in any means, but are we as good as some people go on? Or are those just the guys that took a 1st turn cupped hands on their lvl4 which got sucked into the void?

Regards,

Pofadder

 

[gapton]

I think Lizardmen is reasonably strong under a good general who has solid plans and can react to situations.

I would say it is well balanced. Slann is very strong and I know many would say overpowered. However everybody knows if you take the Slann down, you pretty much win the battle.

It is definitely versatile and have plenty of room for unique playing styles.

We have strong magic, fair combat strength and a short shooting range.

Our elite troops are not as good as other elite troops, our shooting is more about harassing instead of dealing major damage. We lack powerful long range attacks. We are above average in terms of speed, but we are nowhere near being the fastest.

So we rely on magic a lot. Magic is the only option for long range powerful attacks. Magic is also the only way to secure a battle against enemy's beefy elite troops.

If the enemy knows the right spell to shut down, he is already in the right direction. However I have a feeling that some players focus on stats too much, when they guage things purely from our unit's profile they underestimate some of our potential.

We have infamous abilities and items, Focus of Rumination of the Slann and Cupped Hands are probably the best known ones.

However we also have well-known exploitable weakness. Lore of Death and Lore of Shadow can flip the game so easily it just takes a lot of fun out of the game.

 

[newscales]

I've been in battles against my friends who play ogres, dwarves, HE, skaven, and WoC with my lizardmen army and have won a great many more battles than i've lost against those forces. I believe LM are one of the top tier since they have that versatility and really strong magic to support them.

 

[Pofadder]

Thanks for the replies.

Are we a regular tournament winning army in the hands of a skilled general? I honestly do not know the European / US tourney scene

I agree cupped hands + bane head + death slann could be easily seen as cheese, but then there are items like hellheart, anti-magic banners etc which coupled with a massive OK deathstar with 4 chars inside seems to make slann seem like a puppy.

And mostly I would not play a list like that in a friendly club game, maybe tomorrow nights game I might though lol. Facing HE Teclis list with 2 units of 30 white lions, 4 eagles and probably some stuff to fill out core. Last week that list beat a OnG list in the 2nd turn;p

Does not matter though where we are at, Lizzies for life! I am just wondering for interest sake when I see peeps drop those type of comments on other forums.

 

[GCPD]

IIRC the argument is that Lizardmen combine a number of strong points, most of which are consequences of changes from 7th to 8th edition that have inadvertently buffed Lizardmen.

Magic is now extremely powerful - and Slann can both generate large amounts of dice, access all lores and all spells in the lore, and can negate enemy magic which might balance the books (coupled with traditional methods of doing so). This effect can also be doubled with double Slann.
No template partials - this is a huge buff for Salamanders who are now amongst the most dangerous warmachines in the game; able to decimate the big blocks of troops that are encouraged through Steadfast, whilst still costed for the previous edition and ability.
Step up means that the core, which is already tough, now is also extremely deadly and requires less management.
Excellent BRB magic items which trump the army book ones, allowing for excellent - almost unkillable - 150 point Saurus Heroes running around.

In addition, there are the innate things, notably cheap, mobile, highly effective skirmishers, scouts, bunkers and redirecters - or all 4 in one; reliable leadership through Cold Blooded, multiple viable unit choices.

Most of the tournament builds, and consequently tournament comp, will list the following:

Light/Life Slann
Metal/Death slann
Becalming Cogitation
Focused Rumination
2x Saurus Scar-Veterans on Cold Ones
3-4 Skirmishing Skinks
Block of Saurus Warriors
Some Skink Cohorts
2x Terradons
2x Chameleon Skinks
2-4 Salamanders.

That being said, the army is overall extremely well balanced. There's a few things that are too good (Slann; Salamanders) and a few things that aren't very good at all (Cold One Cavalry; solo Kroxigors), but overall the book has a lot of synergy and a number of equally valid tools available. That's probably its strongest point.

 

[Jabroniville]

Yeah, that's basically the thing- Lizardmen have some of the best troops in the game in their Core & Special, a nigh-unbreakable Temple Guard unit, the best Wizard going (adding a dice to EVERY ROLL is crazy in this edition), and the Salamanders exploit. Essentially they're an army with few weaknesses, many strengths, and two of the most powerful single units (Slann, Salamanders) in the game. I would easily consider them top-tier.

They're a bit "All eggs in one basket" with the Slann/TG unit, but that unit is TOUGH to beat.

 

[Irish_Lizard]

Uncomped, the only army that can hold a candle to lizardmen are skaven. We are easily one of the strongest armies out there because we can dominate all phase of the game without sacrificing anything. 2500 means we get 2 slann with rumination, death and rod of power(D3 wounds for D6 powerdice) and bane head which will utterly destroy any opposing army in the magic phase, my record is 27 powerdice used against 3 dispel dice. We can have double scroll which is some of the best magic defense in the game outside high elves and dwarfs. We have 2 scarvet builds that make chuck norris wish he was spawned by the old ones, saurus warriors are rock hard defensively and still put out a horrible amount of attacks in a horde. We can own the movement phase with dirt cheap redirectors which also supply some of the best non template shooting in the game, we have 30pt flying fast cav that excel at killing small units in the movement phase! we have some of the best scouts in chamo skinks and possibly the best and cheapest template shooting in the game in the form of salamanders.

Oh and before I forget to mention it absurdly high leadership for everyone! As for whether they regularly win tournaments, in both the uk and Ireland it would be rare for them not to top 3 in any given tournament(either the regular lizard players didnt show or were using different armies) and would win about 1 in 3.

I still remember one of my first games with lizards tabling a HE player with teclis after my slann blew himself up turn 1, my opponent was not amused!

 

[JWK47]

I'll have to +1 what Irish Lizard said. If you are playing Warhammer out of the book then Lizards break the game with only Skaven and maybe DE able to do anything about them. The combination of virtually unlimited PD generation, spamming skirmishers at a level 8th edition can't handle, absurdly high leadership and nearly universal poison means they have no weakness. You can argue that the Slann/Saurus are vulnerable to Pit/Purple Sun, but at 2500 points you can pretty much ensure your enemy never casts a spell.

 

[newscales]

In researching what army I wanted to play, I was looking for someone that could stand to dominate every phase. LM have the capacity to do that and are easily a top tier army. a few other armies give us trouble, but they are the other top tier contenders. A force of wood elves or one of the crappier armies just folds under out might.

 

[Eladimir]

I agree they are well balanced army but they do have a the glaring weakness of not having any warmachines. Almost regardless of the opponent the lizardmen is required to charge across the field to minmize warmachine casaulties.

We also are pretty lacking in dealing with any monster that has a defense other than just high toughness. ie hydras with the armor and the regen and the thunderstomping can put some intense hurt on.

 

[JWK47]

I agree they are well balanced army but they do have a the glaring weakness of not having any warmachines. Almost regardless of the opponent the lizardmen is required to charge across the field to minmize warmachine casaulties.

I don't think this is a huge disadvantage as we need to rush up to the enemy anyways for all of our shooting to work and to have space to flee. Sitting on our table edge and not leaving it would be suicide.

We also are pretty lacking in dealing with any monster that has a defense other than just high toughness. ie hydras with the armor and the regen and the thunderstomping can put some intense hurt on.

Even here Scar Vets with Burning Blades, or Metal magic (a must in the current meta) can make short work of even these monsters. And ultimately, there's no reason to get in combat with them in the first place.

 

[Rhodium]

We also are pretty lacking in dealing with any monster that has a defense other than just high toughness. ie hydras with the armor and the regen and the thunderstomping can put some intense hurt on.

I killed a hydra in two round of combat two days ago with a lone scar vet with the standard great weapon VotFF cold one set up, didn't even take a wound and minced the hydra, had the dragonhelm so when he popped his breath weapon I didn't care