8th Ed. Lizardmen vs Bretonnia 2000 pts (first game feedback please)

[Kinslayer]

This evening I played my first 8th edition game using my new Lizardmen army. Me and my opponent are both new to this edition, in fact the only 8th edition games either of us have played was against each other back when it was first released. Back then he was using the same army but I was using VC. I haven't played Lizardmen since 6th edition, and even back then I didn't play very often.

So, we set the game at 2000 points, on a relatively simple board with no special terrain rules or anything. We had a 3 hour slot to play but spent the first hour checking rules and setting up, so the game was cut short despite what looked like an inevitable victory for one side towards the end. I'd like to get some feedback on both the list I used and how I played if possible. We have a rematch next week.


My army list:

Slann BSB (Light) 350
focus of mystery, focused rumination

Scar Veteran 100
light armour, enchanted shield, luck stone

11 Temple Guard 211
full command

20 Saurus Warriors 238
musician, standard

24 Skinks & 3 Kroxigor 285

2x 10 Skink Skirmishers 2x 80
Javelin & Shield

10 Chameleon Skinks 120

Stegadon 235

2x 2 Salamander Hunting Packs 2x 150

Total - 1999


His army:
(not 100% sure about this one)

Lord
2 Paladins
2 level 1 Damsels (Fire & Life)
(in here a normal dispel scroll and dispel scroll that can wound me)

8 Knights Errant
8 Knights of the Realm
8 Knights of the Realm
8 Grail Knights

11 Skirmishing bowmen
10 bowmen
10 bowmen



Deployment & Setup:

I had Loremaster / all spells. He rolled Fireball and Flesh to Stone.

I won the roll for first turn and chose him to start deploying first.

I finished deploying last with my scouts, but he let me go first to get a ward.

You can see the battlefield after deployment here from my point of view. My Stegadon is way off on the right and my Chameleons in the trees by his archers.



From left to right;

Skirmishing Bowmen, Grail Knights with Lord, Knights of the Realm with Fire Mage, Knights Errant with Paladin, Knights of the Realm with Paladin, Archers, Archers

Skinks & Kroxigor, Skink Skirmishers, Slann & Temple Guard, Salamanders, Saurus Warriors & Scar Veteran, Skink Skirmishers, Salamanders, Stegadon, Chameleons (scouting)



Turn 1 Lizardmen:



This photo was taken at the end of my turn. I moved my Kroxigor up the left flank and moved up my Stegadon back in towards the centre after it had nothing deployed opposite it but archers. I completely forgot to move my chameleons since they were hidden in the trees so they could not see to fire this turn, my first big mistake. The skirmishing units moved up a bit to draw out his knights and shoot them. I'm not sure I played them right now. In the magic phase, the Slann failed its first spell and shut down the turn.

(we actually played a whole round of magic before remembering a failed casting means no more spells this turn, so we undid all that was done)


Turn 1 Bretonnia:



This picture was taken at the end of his first turn. His archers moved up away from the chameleons behind them in the woods. His knights charged the skinks who shot at them and did nothing, before overunning into the Salamander (who I then realized can't stand and shoot! my second big mistake). His other knights didn't want to risk the charge at long distance so trundled forwards about 6 inches. His magic phase was uneventful too, I dispelled what he got off. He also shot down some more skinks with his skirmishing bowmen.



Turn 2 Lizardmen:



This picture was taken at the end of this turn. My Kroxigor skinks marched up around the terrain again, but I now realized they were never going to make it into the flank of the knights, and would probably take a few turns to get into position to charge them in the rear. Another big deployment or play mistake I think. The Slann meanwhile had popped his brain with a miscast which nuked my Temple Guard and wounded him.



My skinks shot one of his skirmishing bowmen dead, and the Chameleons I remembered to fire killed another two bowmen on the other end of the board. The Salamanders then shot his grail knights and one killed three, but the other turned around and ate a skink instead! Finally some success, kind of. The Saurus and Scar Veteran had charged the knights which had overrun into the Salamanders, and in the subsequent combat both Paladin and Scar Vet missed all their attacks. The knights however destroyed the Salamanders(*1), and broke both the left over skinks and the Saurus (despite cold blooded). Both were run down, caught and destroyed.



Turn 2 Bretonnia:

At this point he turned his rampaging knights to face my depleted Temple Guard and their Slann, and charged his others into the remaining Salamander hunting packs. The Sallies turned and fled, through the Slann who thankfully held, and so his charge failed and he moved forwards a small amount shown by his dice (*2)



Also not seen in the photo, he moved his skirmishing bowmen slightly and shot down a couple of skinks, and moved his other bowmen in a wheel that turned them to see the chameleons. He then fired one of the two units at the chameleons, killed 3 of the 10 which caused a panic test.... which they failed! And my jungle stalkers turned tail and fled (probably out of spite since I forgot to use them on turn 1)




Turn 3 Lizardmen:

At this point the game was all but over for me, mainly because we were running out of time. Both my Kroxigor skink unit and my Stegadon had just moved around the flanks so far, and both were nowhere near the fast moving knights now so the plan to flank them had well and truly failed. The Kroxigor instead charged the skirmishing bowmen, ran them down and killed them all. The stegadon marched towards the back of the knights who were now facing my Slann after running down the Saurus. He was too far out to charge this turn though. I had nothing that could shoot, I did rally my Salamanders and reform beside the Slann to face the knights, but they couldn't shoot this turn as they had just rallied (*3). I had also rallied my Chameleons out in the wood.

My Slann threw some magic at the knights in front of him in the form of Burning Gaze, but despite it getting through it did no damage. He then cast Banishment at the long range and high strength on the lone damsel, all the way on the other side of the board by the bowmen. She was around 43'' away but the boosted version has 48'' range and Str6, I fully intended to blow her up before I went down skewered by lances. Unfortunately it was not to be, including my wizard level I cast on a 19, he then rolled 19 to dispel +1 for his wizard level, the spell was not cast. End of turn.



Turn 3 Bretonnia:

As a last bit of good luck for me, his damsel now blew up in a spectacular miscast that killed 6 bowmen in the nearby unit already shot down to 8 by the Chameleons.




I can't remember exactly the order of the end of game, but the Stegadon made a charge on the back of the knights by the Slann in a bid to save him, but failed to make it. At this point we were out of time so I called it and conceded.

I completely forgot to take an end of game shot before we packed away, but I basically had the Slann and 4 Temple Guard as seen above, with 2 Salamanders, facing 4 units of knights. On the other end of the board I had my unwounded Kroxigor & Skink unit, and out on the right my Stegadon (unwounded), and his damsel and last unit of bowmen in the sights of my Chameleons once more.



So, that was game one. We will be playing again next week, same time.

I think my magic rolling really screwed me up, as well as my deployment perhaps, or more so my strategy to hold the middle and move up the flanks. I didn't need to, he came to me!






*1 = What happens to the skinks if the Salamanders die and they survive, do they form a unit of six, two units of three, or just get removed as casualties?

*2 = The Sallies turned and fled, through the Slann who thankfully held, and so his charge failed and he moved forwards a small amount shown by his dice. Is this correct or does he not make a failed charge move as I fled?

*3 = I did rally my Salamanders and reform beside the Slann to face the knights, but they can't shoot on the turn they reform. Is this correct?

 

[n810]

Re: Lizardmen vs Bretonnia 2000 pts (first game feedback ple

[pic][/pic] <-------------- for pictures man.


Ps. pics on turn two is still broken...



oh....

*1 = What happens to the skinks if the Salamanders die and they survive, do they form a unit of six, two units of three, or just get removed as casualties?

*2 = The Sallies turned and fled, through the Slann who thankfully held, and so his charge failed and he moved forwards a small amount shown by his dice. Is this correct or does he not make a failed charge move as I fled?

*3 = I did rally my Salamanders and reform beside the Slann to face the knights, but they can't shoot on the turn they reform. Is this correct?

1] Skink handlers all die, they are good at that.

2] depends, was it a charge or a pursue ?

3] I not sure I'd have to look that one up.

As far as tactics go I might have kept the saurus wariors and the slan/temple guard closer together.
and perhaps sent some skinks with the stegadon.

 

[Kinslayer]

Re: Lizardmen vs Bretonnia 2000 pts (first game feedback ple

Thanks, edited those pictures in properly now. Any feedback please? Where did I go wrong?

 

[Caprasauridae]

Re: Lizardmen vs Bretonnia 2000 pts (first game feedback ple

Thanks for the report, the pictures were a really nice addition. Too bad it didn't go so well for you.

To answer your questions:

1) Handlers are not there without the Salamander, so they are removed as casualties.

2) In Charge & Flee situation, both sides first roll 2D6, the charger adds their Movement value to the roll, and both sides are moved according to the total. If the charger rolls high enough to catch the fleeing unit, it is destroyed. If the charge move is long enough to make the chargers to get into base contact with another enemy unit, they automatically charge that unit. But to my understanding, this can only happen, if they catch the fleeing unit first. In other words; Knights charge, skinks flee. If knights score (2D6+M) high enough to catch the skinks (2D6), they catch them. If the knights' score is high enough to bring them into a base contact with another unit, they charge 'em. On the other hand, if the knights don't score enough to catch the skinks, but do score enough to bring them into base contact with another unit, they still only move as in a failed charge.

3) You cannot shoot after reforming from flee.

I'd definitely try to keep the battleline more cohesive, as the knights are really coming to you. I would also feel tempted to beef up your combat blocks, 20 Saurus is not very much, not to mention 11 Temple Guard. Perhaps exchange the Stegadon to some able bodies. And, if you can, try to make Skrox take the charge from knights and then flank them with Saurus or other. This way the knights will waste their high S charge attacks to skinks, while Saurus are saved. Oh, and don't botch so many Cold-blooded Leadership tests next time, ok?

Looking forward to the rematch, remember to post how it turned out this time!

 

[T`hinker`er]

Re: Lizardmen vs Bretonnia 2000 pts (first game feedback ple

I would add that you need to have a talk with your Slann about miscasting! I am no Slann expert, but it seems that the discipline that bounces miscasts to the enemy is worth its points in gold. The other one that I really like is the one that gives an additional D6 per spell, although fighting against the Brettonians, who I have always considered a melee combat oriented list, I might just make him ethereal (?)

I do not think that you add your movement when rolling pursuit vs. flee - please check the rulebook. I think this is only in the case of charging.

Overall your mistake was having your flankers too far out too get to the action - the Brets are very fast and knights only work when they charge, so your strategy should be based around them coming to you and you "counter-punching" when they do. Harder to do in 8th, as baiting and re-directing is not as automatic as it was in all previous editions (at least going back to 4th edition, when I started). In fact, this is something that we, as a forum, should really discuss in depth, because with our cheap skink screens, if any army relies upon this tactic, it's the Lizardmen!

For example, your skink skirmishers on the left flank should have been angled such that *when* he broke and over-ran (and the skinks are almost certain to do so), the knights would not have over-run into the salamanders. Rather, the knights should have been forced to hold or pursue and in either case, been left out in the open, well in range for the Sallies to walk around their flank and roast them! Anyone see a flaw in that? I think I am correct about this.

The other mistakes (like Chamo Skinks picking flowers for a turn) you're already aware of

 

[Caprasauridae]

Re: Lizardmen vs Bretonnia 2000 pts (first game feedback ple

I do not think that you add your movement when rolling pursuit vs. flee - please check the rulebook. I think this is only in the case of charging.

If you break your enemy in Close Combat, both units only roll 2D6. If you charge and your enemy chooses to flee (or is already fleeing), you get to add your Movement to the roll, as is the case with every charge you make. Sorry if I explained poorly.

For example, your skink skirmishers on the left flank should have been angled such that *when* he broke and over-ran (and the skinks are almost certain to do so), the knights would not have over-run into the salamanders. Rather, the knights should have been forced to hold or pursue and in either case, been left out in the open, well in range for the Sallies to walk around their flank and roast them! Anyone see a flaw in that? I think I am correct about this.

A really good point, I meant to add that one too, but forget. Kudos for adding that.

 

[T`hinker`er]

Re: Lizardmen vs Bretonnia 2000 pts (first game feedback ple

I do not think that you add your movement when rolling pursuit vs. flee - please check the rulebook. I think this is only in the case of charging.

If you break your enemy in Close Combat, both units only roll 2D6. If you charge and your enemy chooses to flee (or is already fleeing), you get to add your Movement to the roll, as is the case with every charge you make. Sorry if I explained poorly.

Correct! I was talking about pursuing fleeing troops after from combat, which is different, since you are not in the process of running towards the enemy when they flee. On the other hand, fleeing from a charge does not change the fact that the charging models are charging at full tilt, so get to add their movement to the 2D6 roll.

Always nice to discover that I actually know some of the rules

 

[Kinslayer]

Re: Lizardmen vs Bretonnia 2000 pts (first game feedback ple

Thanks for the feedback and rules advice.

I think with it being my first game I put things a bit all over the place and made a few stupid mistakes. I will run a similar list next time just so I can try to put right those mistakes and see if the result is any different.

I also intend to assemble my Salamanders tonight so I don't have to represent them with empty bases next time

The Chameleons I must remember. I think they would have destroyed his archers and damsel had I used them correctly.

The Stegadon I was hoping would draw some of the knights away but they didn't take the bait, and stayed together to destroy the core of my army instead.



My only counter point to the above advice is this. Wouldn't letting the knights hit the skink unit instead be a bad idea, because they can choose to strike the Kroxigor and with the extra attacks up their flanks they would probably skewer the brutes and leave me with just skinks. I've always read to have enemy units hit the saurus and get stuck there, where the kroxigor hit them in the flanks. I did try to do this but I put my kroxigor unit too far out and moved it too far up.

Or did you mean skink skirmishers? Because in that case I'm not sure they'd even survive the charge.

 

[Caprasauridae]

Re: Lizardmen vs Bretonnia 2000 pts (first game feedback ple

My only counter point to the above advice is this. Wouldn't letting the knights hit the skink unit instead be a bad idea, because they can choose to strike the Kroxigor and with the extra attacks up their flanks they would probably skewer the brutes and leave me with just skinks. I've always read to have enemy units hit the saurus and get stuck there, where the kroxigor hit them in the flanks. I did try to do this but I put my kroxigor unit too far out and moved it too far up.

Or did you mean skink skirmishers? Because in that case I'm not sure they'd even survive the charge.

I think you are referring to the Great Reach rule, which has been FAQ:ed out. Kroxigors can attack with all their attacks as per Monstrous Infantry Support Attacks rule, but enemies in base contact with only the skinks cannot attack them back. How much fun is that!

 

[Kinslayer]

Re: Lizardmen vs Bretonnia 2000 pts (first game feedback ple

My only counter point to the above advice is this. Wouldn't letting the knights hit the skink unit instead be a bad idea, because they can choose to strike the Kroxigor and with the extra attacks up their flanks they would probably skewer the brutes and leave me with just skinks. I've always read to have enemy units hit the saurus and get stuck there, where the kroxigor hit them in the flanks. I did try to do this but I put my kroxigor unit too far out and moved it too far up.

Or did you mean skink skirmishers? Because in that case I'm not sure they'd even survive the charge.

I think you are referring to the Great Reach rule, which has been FAQ:ed out. Kroxigors can attack with all their attacks as per Monstrous Infantry Support Attacks rule, but enemies in base contact with only the skinks cannot attack them back. How much fun is that!

I knew I needed to print that FAQ not just skim read it online. Thanks for the heads up.