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AoS Lizardmen warscroll is out.

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by n810, Jul 4, 2015.

  1. lordkingcrow
    Temple Guard

    lordkingcrow Active Member

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    Sure, let's see your formula!
     
  2. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    I've been going through books, and some of the rules for Giants, Kairos Fateweaver, and Wulfrik are just amazing.. xD

    Kairos Fateweaver:
    Secrets and Ciphers:
    When you make
    a casting or unbinding roll for Kairos
    Fateweaver, add 2 to the result of the roll
    if, just before rolling the dice, you can
    correctly spell the spell’s name backwards,
    aloud, without hesitating or looking it up

    Wulfrik:
    The Gift of Tongues:
    At the start of
    the combat phase, Wulfrik can issue an
    indelicate challenge in his foe’s tongue
    if there is an enemy
    Hero
    within 3".
    Issue your opponent with a challenge
    of your own – you can be as mocking,
    rude or insulting as you dare; if your
    opponent rises to the bait and they change
    expression, even so much as crack a smile
    or a glimmer of shock, Wulfrik’s challenge
    is successful and you can re-roll failed hit
    rolls for any attacks he makes this phase
    against enemy
    Heroes.

    Giants:
    Timber!:
    If a Giant is slain, both players
    roll a dice, and whoever rolls highest
    decides in which direction the Giant falls
    (the player commanding the model wins
    any ties). Place the Giant on its side in
    the direction in which it falls – any unit
    (friend or foe) it lands on suffers D3 mortal
    wounds. Remove the Giant after resolving
    any damage caused by its falling body.

    Drunken Stagger:
    If you roll a double
    when making a charge roll for a Giant, it
    immediately falls over instead of making
    the charge move. Determine the direction
    the Giant falls and the damage it causes
    as if it had been slain (see Timber!),
    but instead of removing the Giant after
    resolving the damage caused by its falling
    body, stand the model back up again as the
    Giant drunkenly regains its feet!

    Also, Trogs are pretty damn good now.. Blastadons too, man! Like, woah.... also, Razordons and Salamanders switched roles?! O_O
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
  3. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    Step 1: Add all the favorable stat numbers.

    Wounds+Brave+Range+Attacks+2Hit+2Wound+Rend number+Damage = A

    On models with multiple lines use the longest range number.
    On models with multiple lines add up the total number of attacks from all lines.
    On models with multiple lines use the highest damage number.
    For Any number written as N+ use the following:
    6+ =1; 5+ =2; 4+ =3; 3+ =4; 2+ =5; 1+ =6 (7 minus N)​

    Step 2: Add Save + Move together = B

    Step 3: Multiply the the results of the first two steps. A x B = nnn

    Step 4: Divide nnn by 10.

    That is 'Rating Formula Draft 1'. Feel free calculate more models with it. Suggest changes to it / tinker with it.
     
  4. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    How are you pricing abilities, unit composition, armywide cohesion, weapon options, battalion availability, etc. into this? Isn't this also specific to each army, as all armies operate with a different meta?

    I guess I see where the raw numbers are coming from, but this formula leaves a lot to the imagination. It seems like they're trying to get away from standardized point values, after all... especially when you consider the 'unbound' nature of AoS force organization.
     
  5. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    OK, going backwards...
    • I have no idea what you mean by "different meta" can you explain the phrase? (That was not a warhammer buzzword ages ago / it's new to me.) Also, everything has been released all at once...so, different how?
    • Options: these do need to be assigned a value and added in within step 1.
    • "Armywide cohesion" ? neither adds or subtracts points IMO. Please explain more, about why you think it should.
    • Abilities: these also need to be assigned a value and added in within step 1.

    The idea behind multiplying the Move and Save values against everything else is that those two values (if higher) make it more likely the other factors will get used or stay in the game.
     
  6. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    I could have used the wrong terms, so I apologize if I did. In any case, what I'm trying to convey is that the armies of WHFB have different playstyles, and so their value of particular stats differs given such a playstyle. In other words, the stat's hard number is going to carry more weight for some armies than others. Why should a Glade Guard's number of melee attacks carry the same weight as a Saurus Warrior's?
    Yes, but how are you pricing these? That's my point - you may think that the Skink's Hit & Run is worth 0.6 pts/model, but what if I think it's 0.9?
    As an example, WoC of 8th edition were regarded the "close combat army," so its traits were indicative of that. Since their shooting is pretty bad, the melee units (Chaos Warriors, for example) are absurdly powerful. In any army with decent shooting, they'd be horribly, ridiculously underpriced. Yet, WoC remained cohesive because their meta is combat-oriented. The point that I'm making here is that the army appears one way on paper (underpriced, overpowered), and plays differently on the table (pretty reasonable).

    If you price them as they are, unit by unit, stat by stat, and disregard the army's roster as a functional whole, I think that you've miscalculated. But, to even assign those numbers in such a radically different system strikes me as a misstep as well. I mean, the quantity of special rules, exceptions, etc. has skyrocketed.

    What about all of these abilities that affect die rolls? Being able to field a unit or model with that ability: doesn't that drastically impact the value of the units affected? How does that opportunity change your final sum? Is it fair for the army that doesn't have that opportunity?

    For example, I field a Skink Chief with 40 Skinks... their shooting attacks now hit on a 2+, wound on a 4+. That is downright lethal - very little will stand up to a single round of that, let alone the ensuing combat. How do you price that?

    I don't mean any offense, but I have serious doubts about a point-based currency in a game like this. In 8th, it worked, yeah. But, I don't know that it can work here given the dynamism and explosiveness of these new armies, this new hyper-synergistic playstyle.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
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  7. Andhe
    Saurus

    Andhe Member

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    Well they certainly flushed Tetto'eko's cool factor down the toilet..
     
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  8. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    I left them off on the first pass. Nearly all units have some positive extra ability going for them so I figured it would be close to a wash?? But by draft 2 or 3 some input on assigning numbers would be useful.


    On the other hand TikTakTO is firmly ensconsed with other flyers. Yay !? o_O
     
  9. spawning of Bob
    Skar-Veteran

    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    Just note that not all of our troops have the daemon tag. Slann don't. Swarms don't. Don't forget that if you need to apply some spell effect like for Light of the Heavens - "If successfully cast, then until your next hero phase any battleshock tests for Celestial Daemon or Chaos Daemon.." (buff celestial daemons only, hex chaos daemons only. Table-wide effect. No effect on little swarmy :()
     
  10. Mr Phat
    Skink Chief

    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    *SQUAAAAARKROAAAARRR-HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS*

    Google Translate: "Nice knowing you all ....seriously, its been a pleasure."
     
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  11. Overlord of Serpents
    Cold One

    Overlord of Serpents Active Member

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    Hmmm, may be time to build a new thread to work out potential list building scenarios. We may actually have to reach out to the other communities on this, haha. Also we may need a "Seraphon" Sub-thread.
     
  12. little-myth
    Carnasaur

    little-myth Well-Known Member

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    Can't even download the file, gotta find a way so I can have a read myself.
     
  13. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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  14. little-myth
    Carnasaur

    little-myth Well-Known Member

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  15. Haemoglobin
    Ripperdactil

    Haemoglobin 9th Age Army Support

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    I've read through the rules and it is all kind of confusing. The fact that GW hasn't provided a proper "balancing" tool, nor any real guide in listbuilding is really putting me off. It feels like that there is no structure. The only thing they have provided are the very restricted Hosts and thats about it. Rule wise there are some fun and nifty rules but the whole looks like it will be abused as hell.

    Plus I prefer the look and feel of setting up a nice 2500 points game with carefully painted regiments. All painted and assembled to the point that they look good on a tray as a single unit. AoS just looks way to much like 40k (they even use the same terms: Rend, Pile in, etc.
     
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  16. TwistedCoffin
    Skink

    TwistedCoffin New Member

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    Can tetto'eko onley hit on a 4? :D
     
  17. little-myth
    Carnasaur

    little-myth Well-Known Member

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    Finally! Had to jump onto the other laptop, as I recall that doesn't have Adobe, might check and it was perfectly fine!
    Yes, now I can save it and check it over later on with my boyfriend... when he decides to wake up.
    Hearing about Tetto makes me a little sad, I like Tetto
     
  18. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    I think you can carry on using trays. :stop: I am not seeing anything that says otherwise.
     
  19. thenico20333
    Jungle Swarm

    thenico20333 New Member

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    the EoTG looks sick...a potential second turn is just devastating o_O
     
  20. little-myth
    Carnasaur

    little-myth Well-Known Member

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    Been reading, loving the Basti. Might persuade me to put him back on the table, depends if my boyfriend will play. He is raging at the moment.
    Apparently Settra (TK) and Josef (Dwarves) have some odd rules.
     
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