8th Ed. loremaster for everyone: yay or nay?

[Pinktaco]

According to the newest yet to be released white dwarf we're about to see major changes to the magic phase. Some are kinda ridiculous.

One change is that our mages are all loremaster, so lore master of high magic just became obsolete. This raises one question though, will the dual slann combo ones again be worth it? More lord points combined with more spells could be interesting.

 

[SilverFaith]

Isn't this only for End Time games, and not for all general games?

 

[Tecuani]

Why spend points on a dual slann, when your cheap skink priest now has loremaster, additional 'end times' spells, and 4d6 magic dice, for a mere 65 points Seems to me froggy isn't needed anymore, and can finally catch up on those calculations . Mazdamundi is looking particularly outdated, since his main bonus is being able to take loremaster in any lore. Oh well, perhaps he'll be revised to have loremaster, everything(yes, everything). I honestly wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Demelain]

Give the slann wandering deliberations, and he will be loremaster in all lores...

 

[mortetvie]

Give the slann wandering deliberations, and he will be loremaster in all lores...

Not necessarily... Wandering Deliberations (is that the one that gives signature spell to every BRB lore?) still only gives just the signature spells unless specifically stated otherwise somewhere else.

Ultimately, I still think being loremaster High Magic is pretty good as you can essentially still forget spells for a lore of your choice which gives you a lot of flexibility. A second slaan with lore of Light or life would be a pretty solid choice, though, as there are a lot of spells in those lores that really help LM units.

Alternatively, I can foresee a Light/Shadow combo working well as Mindrazor is just mean when you have any of the Light buffs in play!

 

[Saurian]

Yes it is only end times games, but then 50% lords/heroes started off as just end times and is now ALL games.

Personally I'm a bit pissed.

It's just gutted the tactical element of the magic phase. Only having a limited number of dice, having to prioritise which spells you really need to get off, only having 1-4 spells in the first place and not being able to guarantee what you might get, made it very tactical IMO.

As long as it doesn't make the jump to ALL whf games like the 50% lordsheroes did then I'm not too bothered...

 

[Deusvult]

I agree with Saurian. If it stays as an 'End Times' thing, I have no issues what so ever and I would happily give it a go for a few games. Just dom't make it standard goings.

 

[Saurian]

4d6 and loremaster makes Wizards in lower pointed games just insanely powerful for their points.

 

[forlustria]

so if a slann has high magic and swaps out a spell he should end up knowing all spells in the ore he picks......

 

[Dancing with Saurus2]

This is the first End Times development that I'm really not that impressed by. My mate who just bought a Glotkin is doubly annoyed because it's Initiative 1. This is a problem because you can now have a bezillian Level 1 Death mages each rolling 6 dice a pop to cast multiple Purple Suns on 4D6 WoM. Of course this also has huge implications for our initiative-challenged Saurus.

If it's a Level 3+ caster i.e. a Lord then you get access to the *new* spell from each lore that they're releasing. I haven't seen the details of these spells yet ... I hope they work to balance the magic lores . Unless they are uber powerful (which wouldn't be a good thing) why would you ever really take a Wizard Lord now?

Tetto Ecko is now nerfed a bit as all Level 2s are now Loremaster.

The idea of fielding 4x Level 1 Heavens mages and attempting to cast 4x Comets of Cassandora (or however it's spelt) a magic phase is quite appealing though

These changes are fine if it's just kept to End Times games but as we've seen with 50% Lords/Heroes it only takes a minor FAQ change to make it law. An employee at GW told me that the next edition of Warhammer will be based on populations being decimated due to End Times, creating an era of Heros, with a view to reducing the entry costs (with the potential for smaller armies). Costs that are approx 50% higher than 40k (apparently). I don't think any of this is new news though.

 

[forlustria]

Ive seen a few people say they are making it smaller so its cheaper to get started. Why the hell don't they just put there prices down. That would work just aswell and keep the game good with big battles. £30 for 10 infantry models is stupid that's £3 a model

 

[Xlanax_lot]

Yes it is only end times games, but then 50% lords/heroes started off as just end times and is now ALL games.

Personally I'm a bit pissed.

It's just gutted the tactical element of the magic phase. Only having a limited number of dice, having to prioritise which spells you really need to get off, only having 1-4 spells in the first place and not being able to guarantee what you might get, made it very tactical IMO.

As long as it doesn't make the jump to ALL whf games like the 50% lordsheroes did then I'm not too bothered...

Dude I back you up udually I am compleatly pro GW but this change in magic just seems really bad for us, after our book update, where our slann simply became a really resistent level 4 caster the main advantege I could see was himm having the ability to take loremaster high and tetto the ability to have loremaster hevens. If they give up tat to everybody that is just ridiculus, since a night govlin great shaman would be more proficient at casting spells than the most powerfull wizards in the warhammer world.

Its just my opinion and I hope that there is more to these rumors than what we are seeing and that GW proves me wrong, but man! If this is true, lizardman are getting weeker and weeker with every release. We beter get a lv 100 mazdamundy caster or a 10w 10A pf on 4+ super Krogar

 

[LawGnome]

You know, as much as i hate the implementation of magic in this game (black sun can rot in hell), I actually don't think that giving everyone lore master and 4d6 power dice is all that bad. I am presuming that they are giving the defender the highest 2 dice as dispel dice, so my opinion is based on that assumption.

Currently, you can expect to have an average of 8 dice to 5 on any given magic phase (taking everything into consideration. Randomness will be randomness, so turn by turn will vary). You have roughly 6 spells available, depending on your investment. Many will be situational, so you really only have 3 or for that you want to cast. On average, you will get 1 spell off (again, it varies turn by turn).

With the new rules, you are looking at about 16 dice to 11. You have more options, but really, you are only going to want to cast 4 or 5 spells, depending on the situation. While you may have 21 spells available, you are usually only going to want to use your main caster, as he has a better chance of success. In the end, you end up with more options, and maybe 2 spells cast a turn. More casting opportunities means more miscasts, which means more of your army exploding on that unlucky 3 dice wind blast.

All this does is make magic reliant lists a little more consistent. You can bring a level 1 skink priest and turn him into a dragon every game. You no longer have to base your strategies around "if I roll this spell, I can do this"

Personally, I don't think it will be that bad. So far as we are concerned, it is 35 points we don't have to spend for lore master high, and tettos value came from the vanguards and the rerolls anyway. Only downside is that it means every death player will have black sun, but I don't want to play with those people anyway.

 

[SilverFaith]

our slann simply became a really resistent level 4 caster the main advantege I could see was himm having the ability to take loremaster high and tetto the ability to have loremaster hevens.

1. The Slann now no longer needs to waste points on getting loremaster high magic, and we no longer need mazdamundi to get loremaster. Level 4 still counts for something, and high toughness and a great ward save is still something, as well as access to all lores.
2. I'm against SCs having unique abilities we have no other way of getting, because it severely hurts you when you aren't allowed to take SCs, or if you want a specific ability, but are forced to take something equally specific.

An item that allowed you to reroll the comet arrival dice would just be the equivalent of the warp condenser that Skaven has, which empowers their warp lightning. I don't see why they make such abilities "SCs only", rather than allowing us to make those characters ourselves. Baring specific examples (Karl Franz Ascended, Lord Kroak, etc.) most special characters seem pointless, and their abilities are something that really should be a possible purchase for them. Just give them proper limits, proper point costs, and there you go. I, for one, like not having to rely on Tetto. My primary issue, is how this works in terms of the "only 1 of each spell allowed" - Does this mean 2 level 1 heavens priests either have to share their spells, or that 1 have all of them, and the other only has the signature? Or does that rule just cease to function because they all counts as loremaster?

Its just my opinion and I hope that there is more to these rumors than what we are seeing and that GW proves me wrong, but man! If this is true, lizardman are getting weeker and weeker with every release. We beter get a lv 100 mazdamundy caster or a 10w 10A pf on 4+ super Krogar

I don't feel like we are getting weaker, honestly. I actually just feel we are getting more choices.

My favorite thing about this, is that they make things more consistent. I want to be able to build a strategy around certain builds, and sometimes, I just need certain spells to really push them from "fluffy" to "great", and if I can't rely on getting those spells, then I just wont bother.

My main problem, however, is that if we assume all casters get loremaster, and thus ignores the "only one of each spell present in your army" rule, I can see 3 or 4 beast priests being a super effecient use of your points, giving you several chances of going dragon on your enemy, which is kinda stupid for 65 points. Though it does make Tehenhauin a better choice, since a Great Dragon with immunity to poison is kinda difficult for most armies to deal with.

 

[Stuntyogre]

Tetto + Heavens Slann + as many Heavens Priests as you like = meteor shower of doom
Kroak with 4D6 casting as much as he likes = bye bye elves (who don't have BotWD)

Those are the two I thought of for us, we haven't seen the full picture or what comes afterwards and indeed have no idea what that will be. I'll try it once or twice like this, but I doubt I'll like it

 

[SilverFaith]

Tetto + Heavens Slann + as many Heavens Priests as you like = meteor shower of doom
Kroak with 4D6 casting as much as he likes = bye bye elves (who don't have BotWD)

If you go for Meteor spam, tetto is still a good option, yeah. Being able to reroll that dice is pretty good.

Kroak will still kill everything in the enemy army, even if the elves have BotWD. That banner only saves one unit, killing everything else around them, and still being a reasonable threat to them. 2D6 hits that wounds on 3s? That's still a threat, and considering it is basically free hits on them, as long as you hit several other units, that's perfectly fine in my opinion. You still average 0,8 wounds per casting, and if you spam cast it, you will cause a few wounds over the cause of the game, especially if you can manage to keep them out of CC for 3 casting turns. Fleeing with skinks works well for such purposes. With 4d6, assuming only 2d6 dispel dice? You will be throwing milions of deliverings on them. 2d6 hits might not be much, but once you've casted it 10 times, you are looking 20d6, you have caused about 8 wounds on average, which is highly valuable against a deathstar unit. For free, because everything else around it has also taken tons of S4 hits, so there is likely nothing else left by this point.

 

[Sleboda]

Ive seen a few people say they are making it smaller so its cheaper to get started. Why the hell don't they just put there prices down. That would work just aswell and keep the game good with big battles. £30 for 10 infantry models is stupid that's £3 a model

Yeah! And if Porsche would just makes their cars only $5000 each, then everyone could get into a Porsche too!

/sarcasm

Lowering their prices is about the worst thing they could do for about a zillion different reasons.



As to this discussion about Loremaster, keep in mind that End Times ---is--- Warhammer.
Also, let's wait to see what else the Khaine book (and the whole rest of the End Times releases, for that matter) says. Right now, the picture is incomplete.

 

[forlustria]

Please just give me 5 of those zillion reasons.

Back on topic. No one answered my question about if a slan swaps out a high magic spell will he end up knowing the whole lore of what he chooses.

 

[hdctambien]

No one answered my question about if a slan swaps out a high magic spell will he end up knowing the whole lore of what he chooses.

Since nobody has read the wording of the actual rule, it is not possible to answer this question.

Most likely Slanns will not be able to swap 1 spell for 7 spells. It would take a very awkwardly written rule (even by GW standards) to make that the case.

If they specifically change the rule in the "how to choose spells" section, then that changed rule would probably affect the Slann's spell-swapping ability.

However, if they just give a new special ability to all Wizards*, that doesn't specifically affect the "how to choose spells" section, then it would probably not affect the spell-swapping ability.

*The special ability could be something like "All wizards gain Loremaster (X) for one Lore that they are able to choose from"

But that is all speculation. Everything about this rule is speculation based on a rumor. It is also possible that the rule starts with "Use these changes to Magic only in Scenerio X", it'll be a few more days until the actual rules get leaked.

 

[Sleboda]

Please just give me 5 of those zillion reasons.

OK.

Overhead costs are set at where they are now based on current profits (and thus price points). Shifting the margins per item would not properly match overhead costs.

Shareholders want margin, not unit sales. Selling more items at lower margin reduces shareholder value.

Suddenly dropping prices on existing stock devalues retailer inventories, causing the to sell at a loss or risk alienating customers.

Suddenly dropping prices carries the risk of being perceived as an overreaction to market forces, making it appear that enough complaining can control policy, which is never should.

Suddenly dropping prices has the possible effect of curtailing future sales as customers will think they can just wait long enough and get the items cheaper later.


That's five. In less than 90 seconds of typing. It really is a bad idea to drop prices this way.