8th Ed. Mixed units and casualties...

[boreas]

Hi! A conundrum appeared in a lizardmen discussion... Lizardmen have a mixed unit that contains both skink (T2 W1 20mm models) and Kroxigors (T4 W3 40mm models). Now, du to rules, kroxigors must be placed on the second rank of the unit until there are less skinks in the first rank than the width of the krox in the secon rank. So, if we have a unit that has 6 skinks in the front and 2 kroxigors on the second rank and that units gets attacked in CC. The attacks are made against the skinks (in the front), but are the wounds removed on the Kroxigors (which would, then, have been wounded on T2!)?

On one hand, the rules are quite clear: casualties must be removed from the rear of the unit. On the other hand, you can only attack models with which you are in CC. PLus, you have to remove as many whole models as possible...

What do you all think? Would the same thing happen with a slaan?

Phil

Here's the other take on things:

"the rulebook states in the "Removing Casualties" section of the Close Combat section in the rulebook that "Casualties will therefore be removed straight from the unit's rear rank". The Kroxigor are the rear rank, and therefor wounds must be taken on them. HOWEVER hits are taken against the front rank, so yeh....those krox become WS2 T2 6++ wimps. Sucks to be us but the whole "Krox in the front rank" diagram in the army book only applied to 7th edition"

this is RaW as far as i am concerned

And a link to discussion:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=685424#post685424

 

[wolfmage]

Casualties are removed from the skinks still but the krox will have to move onto front rank as it shrinks and then your opponent will probably try to kill them anyway

 

[boreas]

And, RAW, how would you support this?

Phil

 

[Arli]

If you have 6 skinks left. You're opponent attacks and scores 8 wounds. You would take off 6 skinks and put the other 2 wounds on the krox.

 

[wolfmage]

If you have 6 skinks left. You're opponent attacks and scores 8 wounds. You would take off 6 skinks and put the other 2 wounds on the krox.

Yes that would happen but i was reffering to the actual if there are say 10 skinks left and 5 wounds on the skinks then 3 krox no longer fit on the back row so would move forwards keeping their wounds intact as shown in the mixed units in the codex.

 

[Ilnar3]

If your fighting a stegadon, and you do 12 wounds on the skinks up top do you kill the stegadon too?
If anyone tried that in our group they'd be shot,
Skinks are skinks, krox are krox, nothing in the new rules overide pg 42 of our codex,
I man read pg 42 does anything there get overruled by the new book?
No.
End of

 

[boreas]

To play devil's advocate (and you know people will), I'll say this: p.42 says absolutely nothing about wound allocation. If those 3 skinks dies (and they could die to shooting that is randomized) the a krox does step forward. But a major thing has changed: 8th ed. is pretty adamant about this: casualties are now taken from the back rank.

Now, that stegadon is a really bad example, because it's not a mixed unit with ranks. It's a ridden monster and rules for casualties are pretty clear for Riders and Monsters. So no, not "End of"...

Now, here almost all of you (and me!!) are Lizardmen players. So, we do agree to the logical RAI: skinks die first then krox. But ask around and you'll see that many gamers are not of that opinion (see linked thread to Heresy Online in my first post...). So, by quoting the rulebook, how would you make your point?

Phil

BTW, is there still an email at GW for rules questions?

 

[Ilnar3]

Ok, il bite,
Page 68
"normally a warrior can only strike blows against an enemy model in base contact, common exception for making supporting attacks,

Same page page, dividing attacks, in base contact with 2 different stat lines it can choose which to attack, before dice are rolled,

Then page 99 admit idly characters in close combat,
"remember that models can only attack enemies in base contact.
If that didn't work, page 87
Unique units, the relevant war hammer book will contain all the special rules
At that point LM book, page 41,
Remember that the brb says that cuasuilties are from the front rank but for gameplay reasons we take them from the back.

I have to say I'm really not seeing the issue here, the LM book states exactly how you deal with losing the front rank skinks, it doesn't in any way argue with the rules in the BRB. . . I've run this by several other GT players, non lizard men ones too mind, none of them sees the issue either,

 

[boreas]

Ok, so, then would "extra" wounds made on the skinks roll over to the Kroxigors? After all, according to those rules you quoted, they would be lost since Kroxigors can't be attacked (and thus wounded), a a bit like attacking a unit with characters.

Phil

 

[Ilnar3]

No, of course not, you havn't rolled against the kroxes ws or t
Why would they be hurt?
I'd be more than happy for my enemy to roll each attack separately, until a krox is forced to move into b2b at which point you can roll against the krox,

 

[boreas]

No, of course not, you havn't rolled against the kroxes ws or t
Why would they be hurt?
I'd be more than happy for my enemy to roll each attack separately, until a krox is forced to move into b2b at which point you can roll against the krox,

That's what I'd do, since I only play against friend in a casual environment. I'm still interested in the exact application of those rule quirks (should have been a lawyer instead of a pharmacist, I guess!).

Phil

 

[msinosic]

Till there is clarification just play the fight in slow motion instead of Fast Dice rolling.

Do one attack at a time.
Killed a Skink
Take a Skink from the back.
Killed a Skink
No Skink at the back so take it from the front
Can a Krox step up. Yes. Move him up.
If someone is in Base to Base with that Krox and hasn't yet attacked then the Krox can be attacked.

A bit slower than usual but doesn't that seem most fair for the time being... and dare I say... realistic!?

 

[Hk-47]

I'd say that the extra wounds wouldn't roll over onto the kroxigors, in the same way that excess wounds don't roll over onto heros. (The rulebook also says in the close combat section that any attacks against troops with different WS (Krox) should be rolled seperately.)