8th Ed. Need some help with Lizardmen

[Murrdox]

Hey guys,

I've been lurking here for awhile, but finally decided to join in the discussion a bit... mostly to ask for help.

I'm a Warhammer 40k player, and my friends got me into Fantasy awhile back. I love Lizardmen, so I decided to pick them up. I got the Battleforce, a few other miniatures, and then I've been supplementing with my friend's old edition Lizards.

I have probably about 8 or 9 games under my belt at this point. Our group mostly plays at 1500 or 2000 points. My friends play Empire, High Elves, Skaven, Undead, Dark Elves, Chaos Warriors and Wood Elves.

I have pretty bad luck so far with Lizardmen. I've lost nearly all the games that I've played. I have a decent knowledge of the rules, but not intimately so. I know enough of the rules to play my own army basically.

I've read a lot of the FAQs and guides on here, and I'm starting to understand Lizards a little better, but I'm still failing. So I'd like a bit of advice on what I've been doing wrong, and what kind of list I should be using at 2000 points.

Usually I've been running two blocks of Saurus Warriors of various numbers, armed with Spears to get the most out of my ranks. Then I'll have a block of Temple Guard in the middle of them, with a Slaan with one or two disciplines. Then I'll have a couple Salamanders on the flanks, and some Skinks behind or on the flanks to deal with infiltrators and other odd things. I'm pretty famously unlucky in the Magic phase. Either I roll really low for my Power Dice and don't get spells off, or my opponent dispels them. I've experimented a lot with Lore of Light, since it helps against High Elves and their crazy initiative bonuses. I've used Lore of Shadows and Lore of Metal a couple times and those both turned to disaster. I think I ran Lore of Life once but I can't remember how that game went.

I usually proxy an Old One in there somewhere with a big weapon for killing Monsters and such and put him in one of my Slaan blocks.

So give me a hand. Help me out with some basic tactics, and what I should bring with me for a 2000 point game, including equipment. I'm still iffy on whether I should be paying for Spears on my Sauruses and what Magic Items and Magic banners to buy. Also I'm always fluctuating on what the best formation for my Sauruses are. Ranks of 5? Ranks of 6? How big should my Saurus blocks be? 20? 25? 30?

I'm also confused about Saurus and Temple Guard armor saves, specifically how their shields factor in. Saurus have 4+ armor saves, and if I give them hand weapons instead of spears I understand they get their 6+ ward save. Temple Guard however, have Halberds, but they still have Shields. Even though they have a 3+ armor save, my friends basically tell me their armor save drops to 4+ in close combat because they don't use their shields since they have two-handed weapons. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. So they only get their native 3+ armor against shooting attacks?

To give you an idea of how new I am, I just recently figured out that the Cup of the Old Gods is an awesome magic item I should be taking every time.

Sorry for the wall of text, and thanks for any input you guys can give me. I've got another game scheduled in a couple of weeks and I'd like to do a little better this time.

Here's what I have to work with:

* Pretty good amount of Sauruses
* A couple dozen Skinks
* 12 Temple Guard (I usually proxy some extra Sauruses for more Temple Guard)

* 8 Cold One Cavalry

* Two Salamanders
* Stegadon that I've built as an Engine of the Gods, but we've never played at a point level high enough that I felt I could really use him.

* Slaan Mage Priest

 

[Qupakoco]

Well the first issue is that you are playing some of the tough armies. Tell your friends to buy worse models. Problem solved! Haha, just kidding.

Sounds like you have the basics down. You army sounds pretty typical and the set-up sounds good. It may be that you are getting excited in-game and making poor decisions. Try and make a plan at the beginning of the game and stick to it. Don't adjust a tactic on the fly unless it might cost you a unit of Saurus.

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Here's a 2000 point list that I have used effectively quite often:

Slann - Light
BSB
Cupped Hands
Mystery
Rumination (and/or Becalming if you want to be a super-jerk)
Warbanner

Skink Priest
Cube of Darkness

24 Saurus - Full Command

24 Saurus - Full Command - Spears

10 Skink Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers

10 Skink Cohort - Musician (for the Priest)

6 Chameleons

20 Temple Guard - Full Command - Venom of the Firefly Frog

2 Salamanders

1 Razordon - Extra Handler (just cuz I bought one recently and I like the model)

2k on the nose.

If you like, you can swap out the Skink Cohort for another Discipline like Becalming and the Razordon for another Salamander team or some Terradons/Chameleons. Both work well.

The key to this army is to march it straight forward with your Slann surrounded by a sea of Saurus. Circle buff as much as you can, but don't be afraid to focus buffs on important combats. On phases where you get lots of dice, use two with your Skink Priest and toss out an Iceshard Blizzard. I tend to use the Cube of Darkness early in the game to avoid taking casualties before combat starts.

If Saurus break an enemy I usually restrain pursuit as to not expose my flank.

Chameleons in the backfield run amuck and distract a unit or two. They're cheap and really just there to draw some fire from your Saurus, maybe take out a war machine if the opportunity presents itself.

Skinks and Sallies take the flanks to try and hold up flankers, or put your Skirmishers in front of the Saurus to give them cover.

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Here's a 1500 point list I have taken a few times. Hasn't lost yet.

Oldblood
Cold One
Crown of Command
Fencer's Blades
Glittering Scales
Luckstone

Scar-Vet
BSB
Cold One
Venom of the Firefly Frog
Dawnstone
Light Armor
Dragonhelm

Skink Priest
Lvl 2
Diadem of Power

Skink Priest
Lvl 1

25 Saurus - Full Command

10 Skink Skirmishers (with a Priest)

10 Skink Skirmishers (with a Priest)

5 Cold One Cavalry - Musician (both Saurus characters are in this unit)

5 Chameleons

1 Salamander - Extra Handler

1 Salamander - Extra Handler

1495 points. Hmm, maybe there was a halberd on the Scar-Vet also. Not sure. The list isn't with me right now, but that's the majority of it.

The main point with this army is to distract stuff with your Skinks and Salamanders while you keep your Saurus and Cavalry on a single flank. Essentially you have 2 armies, one on each side of the board. Try an place the Saurus and Cavalry last if you can.

The Cavalry hit pretty hard when buffed with the Oldblood and BSB. Odds are they won't fail stupidity and won't break from any combat, being stubborn.

Saurus hold stuff in place while the Cavalry play steamroller and take out monsters and gun for flank charges.

Priests should prioritize getting Iceshard Blizzard, Harmonic Convergence, and Curse of the Midnight Wind. Comet is nice, but only keep it if you have to. I avoid Windblast and the Lightning spells as much as I can. You already have a lot of shooting. The Diadem of Power might not always get used, especially in low power-die phases. Just don't forget you have it. Priests should also be willing to jump out of their unit if the going gets tough. The little buggers are usually fast enough to stay out of the charge-arcs of most baddies, so don't afraid to run them solo.

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I think both of those can be built with your models.

For Saurus, I always run mine 6-wide. After a round of close combat I'll reform to 8-wide or so to really lay on the hurt. Every new Saurus brought into base contact effectively gives you 3 more attacks.

With the TG armor save, you nailed it. They are carrying their shield with one hand while they are out of combat, but the second they reach the enemy line they sling it on their back to bust out the Halberd. It's kind of unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

Researching your opponents will help you a lot. Don't be afraid to ask your friends which units do what and what their statlines are.

Hope that helps! Which army are you fighting next week?

 

[david l]

Generally I suggest posting a list, getting some feedback, revising, and then playing that list several times. If it isn't going well, look at why and how you lost, and perhaps write some battle reports for more specific tactical feedback. What worked? What didn't work? What died uselessly? What killed you?


I think Saurus should always be 5 wide. They don't hit hard enough for extra width to be very helpful, especially if it lets the enemy go wider. Temple Guard you can try wider, especially 6 wide because it looks nicer.
As for size, I wouldn't field a Saurus unit below size 25, and 30 or 35 is certainly worth it. Personally I dislike spears, but they certainly work better in bigger units. TG below 20 is likely asking to be killed.

Your friends are right about the shields. 8th edition forces the TG to fight with their halberds, even if hand-weapon-and-shield would be better.

 

[Murrdox]

Qupakoco, that is extremely helpful. I never thought about reforming my Saurus blocks into 8 wide previously. However, doesn't that decrease your rank bonuses and make it more likely you'll lose combat? I guess you need to do it intelligently so that doesn't happen. Interesting tactic that I'll have to try out.

In the 2000 list, I'm a bit confused about the cohorts and what I'd be doing with them during the battle.

I have experience with the strategy of using a Slaan with Temple Guard surrounded by Saurus blocks and using Lore of Light to buff everyone. That's sort of the strategy I've used in my past few games. How do you think this strategy would change if I tried out Lore of Life?

But anyways, where would the Cohorts go? In front of the Temple Guard? On a flank? It seems like they'd be pretty vulnerable in the front, but that's where you'd want them to be to make the most use of the Skink Priest? I'm assuming the cohorts aren't supposed to actually DO anything other than be a meat-shield for the Priest?


David 1 I can give you an example of my last battle, which didn't actually go THAT badly, but I made a lot of mistakes.

I was playing undead. My list consisted of mostly what I've mentioned before. I had two blocks of Saurus, one Temple Guard, a Slaan, two groups of Skirmishers, two Salamanders, and a block of three Krox with Skinks.

I had Lore of Light, but I cast the wrong spells on the wrong units. I could have been doing a lot more hurt to the Undead than I was. For example I made the stupid decision of casting "Net" onto an Undead spear block instead of the nearby bowmen that contained the Mage. I also neglected to take Loremaster, and didn't get either Banishment OR Speed of Light which were the two most useful spells I could have had.

There WAS one key turn where I got of Birona's Timewarp and I cast it on all three of my blocks, and charged, and got two of them into combat. I rolled really unlucky for the Temple Guard charge distance, so even with double-movement they didn't make it.

I used the Skinks to wipe out a unit of the Deep-Striking petrifying monsters when they showed up, which worked out really well. Then I used both units of skinks to gang up on the huge stone monster. Thanks to the poison weapons, they did a great job doing some wounds to it, and the Krox took it out.

Question regarding that... I was re-reading the Lizardmen FAQ and got confused. Is it true that because a unit of Skrox is a "mixed unit" it can't be Stomped? That line in the FAQ confused me.

However, the thing that mostly got me is that my opponent got off a Purple Vortex which annihilated a huge group of my Saurus and Temple Guard (we later realized we'd done the spell wrong, but alas) and I just wasn't able to finish him off before I ran out of Saurus, and he used his Dispel scroll to keep me from getting Birona's Timewarp off again. It's POSSIBLE if we'd done the Vortex spell correctly I might have pulled off a win, since it literally did wipe out half a Saurus block. But I still made lots of mistakes... two of them being not taking Loremaster and a Dispel Scroll.

 

[david l]

Question regarding that... I was re-reading the Lizardmen FAQ and got confused. Is it true that because a unit of Skrox is a "mixed unit" it can't be Stomped? That line in the FAQ confused me.

Correct. No stomping SKrox. So they are even better against monsters.

However, the thing that mostly got me is that my opponent got off a Purple Vortex which annihilated a huge group of my Saurus and Temple Guard (we later realized we'd done the spell wrong, but alas)

Lots of new players do Vortexes wrong. It starts in base contact with the caster, then moves the distance determined by the dice.

But I still made lots of mistakes... two of them being not taking Loremaster and a Dispel Scroll.

That sort of list mistake is pretty easily correctable with feedback. Often times you can live with Plaque of Tepok instead of Loremaster, but you absolutely should have more than 4 spells. I like discard 6s a lot, maybe better than a dispel scroll, but mainly I like discard 6s plus Cupped Hands better than dispel scroll plus some other Discipline (and I don't take a priest).

 

[Qupakoco]

Qupakoco, that is extremely helpful. I never thought about reforming my Saurus blocks into 8 wide previously. However, doesn't that decrease your rank bonuses and make it more likely you'll lose combat? I guess you need to do it intelligently so that doesn't happen. Interesting tactic that I'll have to try out.

Well yeah, you shouldn't reform if you're barely scraping by in the combat and it will cost you Steadfast and a couple rank bonuses. But if you're winning and the enemy doesn't have a prayer, why not? My Saurus like winning, so I get to do it a lot.

I have experience with the strategy of using a Slaan with Temple Guard surrounded by Saurus blocks and using Lore of Light to buff everyone. That's sort of the strategy I've used in my past few games. How do you think this strategy would change if I tried out Lore of Life?

If you go with a Life Slann I would look into only running one block of Saurus and one block of TG, taking the points from the spear unit and maybe a few other places to buy a Stegadon or a couple Scar-Vet Cowboys and increase the size of regular Saurus unit to 30. The lore attribute is very helpful for keeping them alive. The Saurus and Temple Guard can get by with the odd buff here and there, and regrowing them will help a lot too. If you have too many combat blocks to try to keep alive you will likely spread yourself thin and make a mistake. That's why the Steg and Characters are nice because you can get wounds back on more than one unit per turn. Oh, and Dweller's is fun for hordes.

But anyways, where would the Cohorts go? In front of the Temple Guard? On a flank? It seems like they'd be pretty vulnerable in the front, but that's where you'd want them to be to make the most use of the Skink Priest? I'm assuming the cohorts aren't supposed to actually DO anything other than be a meat-shield for the Priest?

I included the 10-man cohort just for a meat shield. Don't want him getting picked off by a stray volley of arrows, ya know? Since his spell is likely going to be a Hex, Augment, or Direct Damage, there's not really a need to have him on the front lines. You could easily drop it for another discipline on the Slann (Becalming Cogitation like david l suggested) or drop it along with the Razordon and the spears upgrade to get yourself a Scar-Vet. In that case you could run the Priest with one of the Skirmisher units.