New 40k

[Canas]

I do agree that 7th Ed is really convuluted, but I'm not sure that going the AoS route and overly simplifying things will help. I honestly can't stand the whole "This unit always hits on a 4+, always wounds on a 3+" rule set. It allows for no variation and it really does make some units far superior to others with no reason to take others.

Mmm, this is indeed one of the things I don't like about AoS. It's also what makes mortal wounds a necesary evil to deal with the particularly sturdy stuff while also making it vastly overpowered when facing an army that doesn't have particularly good defenses. Whereas a unit having an armor rating and a weapon having a strength rating results in much clearer and nicer roles. Admittadly those tables shouldn't become too convoluted & it's probably bad if you can field an army that can (effectivly) ignore everything below a certain strength level, but there are much more things to play around with in a system like that.

 

[Aginor]

As an old D&D 3.5E player, used to Hit vs. Armor and then factors that determine whether you actually do damage, this AoS hit and wound mechanic is also strange for me. The possibility to wound with a weapon should depend on factors instead of chance. Hit already is the chance thing.

I see the advantages of the AoS system, it is simple and fast-paced, and you don't have to know the opponent's warscroll to see if you do wounds. You can roll all your stuff, and then he rolls all his stuff. That's nice. In D&D it is a back and forth all the time.
But it still feels strange that for my Skinks it doesn't matter how far the enemy is away (except if he is in range or not), what kind of armor is involved, the size of the target and so on. D&D - up to a certain point - approximates real life stuff pretty decently IMO. Of course it is too complex for a tabletop, but some things in the current system are just strange.

 

[Canas]

As an old D&D 3.5E player, used to Hit vs. Armor and then factors that determine whether you actually do damage, this AoS hit and wound mechanic is also strange for me. The possibility to wound with a weapon should depend on factors instead of chance. Hit already is the chance thing.

I see the advantages of the AoS system, it is simple and fast-paced, and you don't have to know the opponent's warscroll to see if you do wounds. You can roll all your stuff, and then he rolls all his stuff. That's nice. In D&D it is a back and forth all the time.
But it still feels strange that for my Skinks it doesn't matter how far the enemy is away (except if he is in range or not), what kind of armor is involved, the size of the target and so on. D&D - up to a certain point - approximates real life stuff pretty decently IMO. Of course it is too complex for a tabletop, but some things in the current system are just strange.

Meh not only does it screw with realism, but it also vastly reduces the options to play around with. In the lord of the rings tabletop cover doesn't give +1 to your save-roll, there's just a 50-50 chance ranged attacks will hit whatever is in between you and the attacker and you're safe. This is vastly more impactfull than +1 to a save, not to mention it allows you to create cover with your formations.

A Strength vs Defense roll to determine a wound is similar to a to wound followed by a to save, but strength vs defense allows for much creater gradations. After all, a knight is now just as likely to have somehow survived a canonball to the face as he is to survive a shallow cut by a puny goblin. Which means that either when knights fight goblins the knights drop like flies because they have virtually no protection against anything, so every time a goblin lands a hit they die, or a canonball actually wounding a knight immeadiatly wipes out half a unit of knights and the knight magically "saves" a significant amount of cannonballs to the face. Whereas with a strength vs defense roll the canonball could simply have such a high strength that the Knights defense is neglecible while goblins would still not immeadiatly murder Knights left and right. Essentially with hit, wound & save rolls stuff ends upbeing vastly overpowered because it needs to fullfill all its rolls with 1 stat-line. Your armorpiercing monsterhunters need to have the damage to take down the big daemons, but that damage is just as effective against puny cannonfodder who has no defense to begin with.

Also, I'd love to actually be able to play with distance, or have bigger targets be easier to hit. Take a celestant on stardrake, the guy model is massive, how increadibly bad a marksman do you have to be to not hit it? Not to mention that whenever he saves he somehow still saves it with the shield wielded by the celestant.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Meh not only does it screw with realism, but it also vastly reduces the options to play around with. In the lord of the rings tabletop cover doesn't give +1 to your save-roll, there's just a 50-50 chance ranged attacks will hit whatever is in between you and the attacker and you're safe. This is vastly more impactfull than +1 to a save, not to mention it allows you to create cover with your formations.

A Strength vs Defense roll to determine a wound is similar to a to wound followed by a to save, but strength vs defense allows for much creater gradations. After all, a knight is now just as likely to have somehow survived a canonball to the face as he is to survive a shallow cut by a puny goblin. Which means that either when knights fight goblins the knights drop like flies because they have virtually no protection against anything, so every time a goblin lands a hit they die, or a canonball actually wounding a knight immeadiatly wipes out half a unit of knights and the knight magically "saves" a significant amount of cannonballs to the face. Whereas with a strength vs defense roll the canonball could simply have such a high strength that the Knights defense is neglecible while goblins would still not immeadiatly murder Knights left and right. Essentially with hit, wound & save rolls stuff ends upbeing vastly overpowered because it needs to fullfill all its rolls with 1 stat-line. Your armorpiercing monsterhunters need to have the damage to take down the big daemons, but that damage is just as effective against puny cannonfodder who has no defense to begin with.

Also, I'd love to actually be able to play with distance, or have bigger targets be easier to hit. Take a celestant on stardrake, the guy model is massive, how increadibly bad a marksman do you have to be to not hit it? Not to mention that whenever he saves he somehow still saves it with the shield wielded by the celestant.

@Aginor and @Canas

All valid points but AOS was created to be a simple and fast paced game, having to constantly check this and that goes away from the actual game design, I do see the point on different height models should be easier to hit but again your adding complexity to the system.

There is nothing stopping you house ruling these things but again I really do see your points but that is not what AOS was created to be.

I think we should have a AOS thread so we stop filling every topic with the same issues.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Who are going to be in the starter box? Please don't let it be Chaos Marines again - that's why I hated Dark Vengeance, because just the idea of good Space Marines vs evil Space Marines in a starter set really bores me. BRING ON THE ALIENS!

 

[Aginor]

Who are going to be in the starter box? Please don't let it be Chaos Marines again - that's why I hated Dark Vengeance, because just the idea of good Space Marines vs evil Space Marines in a starter set really bores me. BRING ON THE ALIENS!

True. That would be lame.


Btw: I am kinda torn about 40k
On one hand: I want those rules to become easier and beginner friendly, so I would be more interested in the game and maybe start a small army.
On the other hand: I know that many current players of 40k kinda like the rules and would hate them to be much different. I don't want them to be angry.

....hmmmm not sure what I hope for concerning 40k.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

From what I've heard on Necrontyr Online (I'm also a member there, as my Necron alias, Mithihotep the Indomitable), chargers will go first and units will have their own Move value, like in fantasy and AoS (chargers went first in 7th Ed fantasy although not in 8th)

 

[Canas]

@Aginor and @Canas

All valid points but AOS was created to be a simple and fast paced game, having to constantly check this and that goes away from the actual game design, I do see the point on different height models should be easier to hit but again your adding complexity to the system.

There is nothing stopping you house ruling these things but again I really do see your points but that is not what AOS was created to be.

I think we should have a AOS thread so we stop filling every topic with the same issues.

Fill all te threads

Nah, overal AOS is fairly good and there's beauty in the simplicity and significant parts of it seem like good ideas for th new 40k. Given 40 seems to go closer to AOS I do think that they are good commetns to make. Anyways taking the AOS rules as a basis I'd hope they'd include the following differences for 40k

• Keep strength vs defense ratings for attacks, for aforementioned reasons.
• Keep point-costs for different loadouts, at the very least for special equipment (banners, musicians and magic weapons that 1 in 5 models may have etc.)
• Make cover more meaningfull than just +1 to save-rolls. Similarly allow good formations to play more of a roll here. Ranged attacks in AOS are awefully overpowered due to the lack of counterplay other than outshooting the opponent.
• Don't oversimplify magic to the point of AOS.
• Abilities need to have interaction, AOS has too many abilities that are essentially "magic" but without the oppertunity to unbind them.
• Include something to be able to attack specific models reliably so you don't get the 1 special dude surviving his entire squad. E.g. in 40k currently when shooting the closest guy dies first, this would be sufficient for this.

That would be all I think.

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl yea, it'd be boring if the starterbox is just spacemarines, would love to have a bit of a difference beyond just "these are spiky and red and these are blue and not spiky"

 

[Jorgik]

Who are going to be in the starter box? Please don't let it be Chaos Marines again - that's why I hated Dark Vengeance, because just the idea of good Space Marines vs evil Space Marines in a starter set really bores me. BRING ON THE ALIENS!

I totally agree, but sadly for the last 3 starting boxes space marines of one kind or other had been included (And I am a space marine player..)
If I remembre well 7th was dark angels (SM) vs chaos SM, 6th was SM vs orks, 5th I think brought SM vs tiranids. The´ve all been SM vs sth, I´d actually love a necron vs tiranid boxset.
But it seems that first release of the new 8th ed will be space marines (with those larger marines, if the rumors are correct) or perhaps the new faction, so I think that the new starter set (If there´s any, but I doubt there isn´t) will include SM vs the new army they want to release

 

[Jorgik]

I totally agree, but sadly for the last 3 starting boxes space marines of one kind or other had been included (And I am a space marine player..)
If I remembre well 7th was dark angels (SP) vs chaos SP, 6th was SP vs orks, 5th I think brought SP vs tiranids. The´ve all been SP vs sth, I´d actually love a necron vs tiranid boxset.
But it seems that first release of the new 8th ed will be space marines (with those larger marines, if the rumors are correct) or perhaps the new faction, so I think that the new starter set (If there´s any, but I doubt there isn´t) will include SP vs the new army they want to release

Nevermind, just read rumors about ultramarines (rescaled) vs death guard.
link
I actually makes sense, as the new announcement image pictures a space marine, half loyalist, half nurgle

 

[Canas]

Nevermind, just read rumors about ultramarines (rescaled) vs death guard.
link
I actually makes sense, as the new announcement image pictures a space marine, half loyalist, half nurgle

sigh... 'well that's no fun

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

To quote Obi-Wan from the Phantom Menace, "Nooooooooooooooo!"

Not bl**dy Chaos marines vs good Space Marines again!!!!!!!!

I now have the hatred(8th Edition 40K) special rule.

Will they release a new army then at some point? Hope it's a new alien race

 

[Captaniser]

A little preview about how weapons will work in the future of 40k.

 

[Canas]

A little preview about how weapons will work in the future of 40k.

O that looks nice, various types, a strength rating, armor piercing. Only thing I can't tell from it is how exactly hitting works & what exactly the difference between the various types is.

Also, damn 48" range.. on a 6'x4' map.. that's kinda scary.

 

[Captaniser]

O that looks nice, various types, a strength rating, armor piercing. Only thing I can't tell from it is how exactly hitting works

It will work the same way AoS does it.

what exactly the difference between the various types is. Also, damn 48" range.. on a 6'x4' map.. that's kinda scary.

the weapon profiling is a little weird, but i'll tell you how it works

Assault: you can assault a unit after firing this weapon.

Rapid fire: if you stand still, you make extra shots.

Heavy: you must stand still too shoot.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

It will work the same way AoS does it.

I think a lot of the game will work like AoS does.

Seems like the Psychic phase is pretty much a copy and paste of the AoS magic phase...

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/04/40k-breaking-gw-talks-psychic-phase.html

 

[Jorgik]

Will they release a new army then at some point? Hope it's a new alien race

I´ve read rumours confirming it´ll be an imperium army, and people saying them to be "nothing we have seen before", though there haven´t been leaks (at least that I know of) of the models
Maybe leaks of the starter set:
link
If there are that many models I may fall for it for christmas

 

[Canas]

It will work the same way AoS does it.



the weapon profiling is a little weird, but i'll tell you how it works

Assault: you can assault a unit after firing this weapon.

Rapid fire: if you stand still, you make extra shots.

Heavy: you must stand still too shoot.

So, roll to hit, compare armor & weapon strength to determine actual damage and stuff has a save?
What's WS, BS, S, T & LD?

I think a lot of the game will work like AoS does.

Seems like the Psychic phase is pretty much a copy and paste of the AoS magic phase...

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/04/40k-breaking-gw-talks-psychic-phase.html

Damn it, mortal wound spam... that's bound to include AoS stupid rule of 1 then. Though it does look like they'l at least include some schools of magic from the start which should at least mean there is at least something more going on with it.

 

[Jorgik]

So, roll to hit, compare armor & weapon strength to determine actual damage and stuff has a save?
What's WS, BS, S, T & LD?

Weapon sill, Ballistic skill, Strength, Toughness, leadership
And yes, they kept that the same, first you roll to hit, if successful you roll to wound (comparing strength and toughness) and then you get to roll saves. What they've changed is that a weapon won´t anymore either allow save or completely cancel it, but instead will grant worse and worse saves until it is ignored. Kind of how it worked with 8th wh fantasy

 

[Canas]

Do the WS & BS influence your hit-roll? And do guns now get a bonus from both the weapon's strength and the guy wielding it? That's a bit silly.

Does sound a bit more interesting than AOS in that aspect though. Especially that this does eliminate the need for mortal wounds on normal weapons (for the most part)