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8th Ed. New Lizardman army book and info

Discussion in 'Lizardmen Discussion' started by Rikard, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. GCPD
    Bastiladon

    GCPD Active Member

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    You know what? I went for a run after my wall of text and was thinking the same thing. 4 of them are only 160 points. Hell, I spend that much on 12 Executioners in my Dark Elf army; for all the good they do me. At least in the flank of something 4 of them could cause a mess. I could foresee keeping them back and looking for any isolated units that stumble out of BSB/General leadership bubble range, and then pouncing on them. Its just a shame they don't get their d3+1 frenzy and re-rolls all the time - that would definitely be worthwhile!

    I'm quite tempted to give them a try, as two boxes would still leave me two left over for Chief conversions. Will have to see if I can free up the points for them but strongly tempted. If the Solar Arc Initiative buff range is any good they could be I4 fairly easily too.
     
  2. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    Actually their poor leadership makes their usage fairly straightforward. On turns you don't want them charging, keep them in the Slann bubble. If you ever move them out of the bubble, just be sure they will be in decent charging position next turn. The unit might make a nice target for Walk Between Worlds.. zoom them out somewhere where they will be able to charge next turn.
     
  3. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    Yeah, true. Just seems like they're gonna be one hit wonders. Once you leave the leadership bubble they better be positioned correctly or it's a 50-50 shot of charging the wrong target. Though I guess if they break and flee than it's no longer an issue. But if that happens they also lose their effectiveness. Curious how that works against marked units. Think Toad Rage will be anything like Blood Frenzy? Can anyone read that tiny print in the WD?

    I can see using Terradons like we currently do, getting up close and personal, taking on warmachines, re-directing charges, dropping rocks on MC and elites, etc. Plus now we have fire. Good deal to me.
     
  4. Maert
    Skink

    Maert New Member

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    The problem with frenzy isn't the "I have to charge", it's the "I have to overrun" part... Good players can use this massively to their advantage, especially against worse opponents.

    With flyers it's much harder to get them to "charge this silly unit and overrun and expose your flank", so I think the Ripperminators will not be burdened as much with this.

    Carnie, on the other hand... o_O
     
  5. T`hinker`er
    Salamander

    T`hinker`er Active Member

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    The Ld 6 skink skirmishers and cohorts are going to be a lot harder to use to block and redirect with. We used to never worry about rallying cohorts of 10 skinks or small units of skink skirmishers when they fled. Now it's 50-50 that they will keep fleeing right off the board. I think it's reasonable to surmise that GW had a problem with poison javelin skink spam blockers/redirectors. A shame, as that tactic took brains to use correctly (despite being derided as spam) and the replacement tactic of "big monster target saturation" seems infantile (40K) by comparison. I wonder if the chameleons will be more attractive now, or will their Ld also be nerfed?

    On the other hand, for grind it out melee, Skrox, always used the LD of the Krox. Now I am worried whether this is still going to be the rule (it is in the BrB, but our new book may say otherwise*) and also whether or not the Krox's Ld takes a nose dive! Is there any info on the Krox points and stats?

    *It always struck me as odd that the dumb brutes had a higher Ld than the skinks (although it could just reflect how immune to pain and panic they are, which has little to do with intelligence).

    On swarms, it makes sense that the swarms would be special since the Bast is special and may be the source of all swarms now, if you actually have to purchase the swarms as Bast accessories. The alternative is potentially unlimited free bases of unbreakable swarms!

    Certainly the swarm models themselves will not be free. I note that GW has brought back the metal swarm models on their website. As I recall, there were some rather 2 dimensional snakes on the CoC sprues too. Pity the Bast just isn't a great miniature IMO, but I am already thinking of ways to convert it, or better still, make one from scratch...

    Interesting discussion on the Rippers. Frankly I am not convinced that they are worth the points over Terradons. The stuff they are good at killing can just as easily be killed by the terradons, and in tougher fights they just don't seem that great. I do think they create some interesting tactical decisions for your opponent however, so if the price is such that you can include them without sacrificing too many other things, fine.

    Predatory Hunter ability on the Saurus seems to me to make them exactly 16.6% better overall. The boost to a 5+ extra attack with the Trog is going to make this a great ability. Still waiting to see if this can be buffed further with Beast magic to make s5t5 Saurus. Or Buffed to be re-rollable. If either (or both) are so, this will put our core infantry well over the top. Luckily the Trog is by far the best looking of the new monsters. But how survivable will he be with cannon meta?

    Pondering, pondering...
     
  6. Reddogfish
    Saurus

    Reddogfish New Member

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    I am wondering if there will be anything stopping you from getting rerolls to hit with units with PF and if the rerolls that roll 6s can then add to the attacks...

    One thing I do want to ask though... is where are you guys ordering your books from.

    I know Wayland Games is supposed to be decent, but I havent seen the new lizardmen one advertised there yet...

    I dont want to pay GW prices cause they are outrageous... and I was wondering if anyone else here buys from a reputable online store with decent prices.

    I am in the land of Oz if that helps... lol.

    Oh and HELLO out there... this is my first post. :D
     
  7. Asamu
    Temple Guard

    Asamu Well-Known Member

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    You will be able to use Kroxigor leadership for the skinks unless it specifically states otherwise... The rule in the BRB is that you may use the highest leadership in the unit or the general's leadership.

    Carnosaurs should be quite a bit better as a hero choice with the PF rule (16.666% more attacks), and with the Engine no longer requiring a mounted skink priest, it may offer additional protection with the 5+ ward.

    Also take into account that there is a Saurus riding the Carnosaur with 4.666 attacks, and likely a ward+ charmed shield (I would go charmed shield+ talisman of preservation and possible a great weapon) to keep it from giving up points from lucky cannon shots.
     
  8. JWK47
    Saurus

    JWK47 New Member

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    Call me a pessimist but I'm pretty concerned by the release and it's ability to compete at least in my local meta:

    Currently the army competes in my meta through the use of the Skink Cloud, large amounts of skink cohorts, skirmishers, camo skinks, terradons and salamanders flood the board with shooting and deny the enemy the ability to move while either a party slann or double Slann magics their army off. Throw in 2 Scar Vets to hold up any MC that get through and you're away home. This is incredibly effective, but still has tough match-ups such as Skaven, HE, WE and TK archer spam.

    Will this army still be viable given what we've heard?

    Skink LD - The drop to 5 means that anyone outside of the Slann Bubble (if the Slann can still be BSB) will only pass a ld test roughly half the time. The impact of this on an army that takes a huge amount of panic, march and rally tests is huge and will probably destroy the synergy of the army.

    Scar Vets - Cheaper so still able to fill their role effectively.

    Salamanders - Removal of march and fire would cause you to fire significantly less effective shots due to the fact that smart players will get sallies fleeing/killed as soon as possible.

    Slann - Any nerf to the Slann's survivability/offensive output significantly affects our ability to go get points in the magic phase. All rumours point to a big nerf on the Slann

    It's thus my belief that the Skink Cloud will in all likelihood be dead as a competitive build.

    So what have we received in compensation for this?

    Carnosaur - An increase in 10 points is insane for a ridden monster that was previously not part of competitive builds. The ability to create a target saturated environment is a possible plus. Furthermore I think it'll still be unviable in the Lords slot as a Level 4 (Slann or Skink) with 100 points in magic items will probably preclude fitting in an adequately fitted oldblood. In the hero slots I believe Cowboys will continue to be a far more efficient option.

    Saurus - Same points but gains extra attacks on a roll of 6. The quality of these attacks is still low being I1 and WS3. Furthermore in my meta at least, infantry don't win games unless they're Sorc Bigunz, DE, or HE with BotWD. They remain to slow (M4) and too dependent on a now weaker magic phase (assumed Slann nerfs) in order to put out damage. I1 (or 2 with solar prism) still leaves our army in a position to be tabled by a single purple sun (coincidentally the lore of choice for most armies and the Nurgle DP). Furthermore we are less able to stop that purple sun than we used to be (Becalming no longer able to prevent IF and cause failures to cast). Saurus were trash that could work with a party light slaan, I don't think that they'll be any better now that the party light slann has been neutered, wildform skink priests or not.

    Skinks - Ld 5, already covered.

    Ripperdactyls - WS3 (then being hit on WS2) and low I means that they offer virtually nothing against most competitive army builds (WoC, Skaven, Ogres). Low A/S will see them shot off by BS shooting from resurgent Elven armies while they will bounce off WoC. In the end they'll be less reliable Terradons that can only truly engage the targets terradons could anyways in a competitive setting.

    Bastilidon - Solar Prism gives +1 I, rubbish, even with Hand of Glory this can get Saurus to I5 and Temple Guard to I6, if you roll a 5-6 and your opponent lets it through. Even if you get to go first the low quality of the attacks is a hindrance. It's bound spell is well, a bound spell and now has to compete against a nerfed Slann for power dice. The Arc of Sotek buff is unknown, but it looks like it produces swarms for its bound spell. Swarms, as in the completely dysfunctional unit type. By all accounts it has a 2+ save, but that makes no difference vs Cannons.

    Troglodon - Stats are completely underwhelming and it appears it'll go down fast to any shooting/combat. The ability to get extra attacks on a 5+ for PF is pretty cool, but we're still faced with the requirement to buff like crazy to get value out of those attacks.

    Stegs - can now get engine of the gods which may well be the saving grace of the army if 5++ are still on offer.

    Don't get me wrong, I love lizards and have ordered 3 carnos, 2 bastilodons and 3 boxes of rippers etc. but I'm concerned by the rumours. It seems to me that the direction of the army has moved away from the skink cloud (fine/I get it) to an army based on combat infantry blocks supported by monsters. The problems are:

    Those combat infantry suck, because nearly all combat infantry sucks now, because they are crazy vulnerable to the most common lore in the meta and are reliant on a now weakened magic phase to be competitive.

    None of the monsters are that great (low ld, don't fly, lack regen etc, not underpriced) The EoTG is potentially the only thing that will keep them up for any length of time.

    The shooting the army was famous for is short ranged and directly reliant upon the manuevaribility of the shooting skink units (camos/skirmishers). That manueverability was directly reliant upon coldblooded ld 6 to keep marching, keep rallying and avoid panic. That manueverability is gone.

    Right now the army that the lizardmen seem to be modeled after is Beastmen (combat blocks supported by monsters). This terrifies me because the concept of the army book is so out of touch with current competitive warhammer.

    Keen to hear people's thoughts about where the teeth of this army might lie in a meta dominated by WoC, Skaven, HE and Ogres
     
  9. Darius the Insane
    Skink

    Darius the Insane New Member

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    I hear ya mate, I'm in NZ and the prices here are absolutely mental. As to the PF, re rolls to hit would be fine I imagine however as it has been said before "you can't re roll a re roll" therefore you can't re roll any PF attacks that come up 6's. If that all makes sense...........
     
  10. Mahtis
    Cold One

    Mahtis New Member

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    Rippers are good if you play your cards (well... miniatures) right. Just thought that can flying units charge over an enemy unit? if so, you could possibly charge over the main combat block to attack the 10-15 unit wizard bunker.
     
  11. Reddogfish
    Saurus

    Reddogfish New Member

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    If I rolled a 6 to hit initally and tried to reroll it I hope someone would stop me... :p

    My main army is skaven... and stat wise while I am not overly impressed by the monsters... I think the "rippers" will become a staple in many armies... Although their initiative lets them down I think the number of attacks they can bring to bear in a flank will mean some serious pain for standard blocks... especially as the frontal assault will now be initaiated by 'slightly' better saurus...

    I think rippers will become knight killers... being about to hit in a flank meaning only 2-4 rider attacks first before a couple of horsy attacks... With the charge they will generally face S3 or S4 attacks back first meaning a 3+ armour save should protect them pretty well.. against a unit of 10 knights or some monsterous cav they should do plenty enough damage to reduce them below combat effective levels.

    Artillery is not really a concern for these guys because you can just ensure only one is hit by cannon fire at a time with good positioning... and BS shooting will usually suffer from long range and shooting at skirmishers... on top of their armour I think the only threat against them before they reach combat will prove to be MM... but they that is the bane of any small elite unit.

    It all remains to be seen obviously... but if as skaven I had access to a flying unit that could put out that kind of damage if even only once in a game... I would probably take it.

    Also what about life buffing them to toughnesss 7.... Not ideal... I know... lol.... or better with light and I10 and WS10 with your rerolls and PF I think someone said for these...
     
  12. JWK47
    Saurus

    JWK47 New Member

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    Any decent player would just keep his block 1" away from the back of the other in such a way as to prevent a charge on the correct frontage.
     
  13. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    Well, if you focus only on the negative, I suppose things look bad. But there are a couple things that should help you realize the sky is not in fact falling.

    First, the book's not out, and the only things being confirmed right now come from the White Dwarf. So we're getting incomplete information at best.

    Second, you appear to be, in fact, blindly pessimistic. You mentioned that the Slann might get nerfed... well, probably in some ways, yes, but it has also been widely confirmed that the Lore Attribute for High Magic will allow the Slann to customize his Lore over the course of the game. He will be able to take Loremaster as well, and so you'll start with 8 spells and be able to customize as you see fit. This reserves the Slann's spot on the throne of "Best in Warhammer," because it basically allows him to tweak his lores to suit varying opponents. His temple guard also appear to be dropping in points, while gaining PF.

    Salamanders will probably lose march-and-fire, because let's face it, it was probably never intended to allow them to march and fire, since razordons couldn't either in the last book. They're only 5 points more expensive and will still be worth taking, though they'll be less of a no-brainer to use. You also didn't mention razordons going down 10 points and having access to a BS buff now, or the rumor that they'd be getting stomps.

    Skinks lose 1 Ld, disallowing the skink cloud, but this is rumored to come with a point reduction. If kroxigors drop in points as well, skrox are much more affordable.

    Carnosaurs may very well still be not worth taking, but we don't yet know their full rules and what upgrades they can take. At least now you can fit one in your hero points and not give up your level 4. Didn't have that option before. Also it is gaining PF, and speaking of meta, monstrous cav will be pretty scared of the D3 wounds the carno does.

    Saurus - really you can't complain much if they remain the same points and gain PF. As already mentioned, Slann is arguably a better caster now that he can cast from 9 lores in a single game. Remember all those dual Slann lists? Only need one now, he can change lores mid-fight.

    Bastiladon - +1I isn't that great, especially if this is a bound spell, but you failed to mention the rumored str5 template weapon this thing is rumored to be toting. If it fires like a stone thrower, you can use Hand of Glory to boost BS and indirect fire to guide the projectile where it'll do the most damage. I don't think anybody knows what the Ark of Sotek will do, and who knows, maybe they made jungle swarms worth having... Jungle Swarms aren't a great choice but if a unit can spit them out for free instead of 65 points (whatever the new cost is) then it may be something to look at.

    Ripperdactyls - Don't know if 4+ AS is confirmed (at best 3+), but they have potential as bunker kamikaze units. These will probably take a lot of practice to use well.

    Trog - We don't know enough to say it won't be worth taking. We don't even know what that oracle fellow on the back does yet. Maybe he gives a ward save or helps buff troops?
     
  14. chefsdad
    Saurus

    chefsdad New Member

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    So many posts stating the unusability of ld5 skinks...

    How many cloud players had their important units out of general/bsb range?

    I like it tbh, think it balances the army a bit ad makes the Slann far more central and important. I for one will still be using the cloud if the only change is leadership.
     
  15. GCPD
    Bastiladon

    GCPD Active Member

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    No rage here. I'll take it for -1point. Never have enough alive to roll leadership tests with anyway!
     
  16. Didymus
    Chameleon Skink

    Didymus Active Member

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    Weren' skinks Ld5 as well before 7th edition?
     
  17. JamJar
    Temple Guard

    JamJar Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know the other upgrade for the Carnosaur?

    One is Blood roar (like the griffin) (nice)
     
  18. Rikard
    Stegadon

    Rikard Well-Known Member

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    The other is called leaping strike/stride.

    Someone who claims to have seen the book says that Krox have gone down to 50 points. I don't hold out much hope of them being strength 5 as a base though and that's a make or break for me.
     
  19. Demelain
    Skink

    Demelain Member

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    Walk between worlds seems nice on salamanders, 26 inch move in the first turn, 6 from the pack and 20 from the spell, could bring you all the way behind the opponents line and out of charge arcs.
     
  20. Slanputin
    Carnasaur

    Slanputin Well-Known Member

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    I have little knowledge on terminology, does this refer to Skirmishers?

    Yes, I'm pretty sure they were. It's not as if we've been nerfed without any reasoning: our current Ld6 Skinks are more of an anomalous occurance on that front. It's a little painful but adaptable.

    I really want to know what this is, I've a range of things from Swiftstride (like Grymloq) to something charge-based in mind..
     

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