8th Ed. >New rules: MY take on the new unit

[Gor-rok]

Our Rare choices are sorely lacking; move Bastiladon there and give him an appropriate stat line (M4 WS3 BS0 S5 T6 W5 I1 A4 LD6), and a reasonable boost in cost. He's supposed to be a tank, fer crying out loud!

The -1 to wound shenanigans never work out, though... Down that path lies the K'daai Destroyer, and all the meta-breaking nightmare that it brings. I say give him a 5+ ward against shooting phase attacks to represent the shell deflecting stuff and call it good. This is an excellent point:

Tlaloc of Xhotl wrote:
The Bastiladon's thick, stone-like hide makes it extremely difficult to kill outright. Hits that do multiple wounds have their results halved and heroic killing blow is negated on a roll of 4+


Dont you see what you are doing? this is pure arms-race. "Cannons? make cannons not work"..next it will be a writer that makes "cannons that work against units that make cannons not work". Halving multiple wounds seems way to much as a "patch this problem" workout, and is hard to justify fluffwise, as its the bastiladons scales that are the hard part, not its flesh...which is hit since its wounded.

I LOVE the idea of focusing the Solar Engine beams together like an array of magnifying glasses; thanks, Phatmotha-phucka! I'd have something like:

Models casting either Beam of Chotec or Shem's Burning Gaze may choose to target an unengaged friendly Solar Engine instead of an enemy unit. On a D6 roll of 3+, the magic missile may be redirected at an enemy unit as though it had been cast by the target Solar Engine for purposes of range, forward arc, and line of sight. On a 1 or 2, hits from the spell are resolved against the target Solar Engine and the spell ends. In either case, the spell is resolved adding +D3 strength and +D6 hits.

Probably needs some tweaking, but you get the idea: Super Deathstar laser chain reaction that occasionally spectacularly malfunctions... Just sounds terribly, terribly fun. Few other things I'd do, among many:

-Cold One Cavalry as core. 2 point spears (C'mon, Chaos gets lances for 2!), one unit gets a magic standard.

-Predatory fighters don't have to pursue if any character is in the unit.

-Kroxigor may be targeted in mixed units, but are -1 to be hit. Stomps and T-stomps against the unit hit a krox on 5+ and are then ignored.

-Razordons have BS4, no to hit penalty for stand and shoot. Poison OR AP for 5 points/model.

-Slann in Temple Guard can refuse challenges without penalty.

-Ripperdactlys have +2I on the charge.

-Troglodon...... Oh, man.

 

[Tlaloc of Xhotl]

dont take this the wrong way Tlaloc but most of that dosnt make sense to me.

why isn't Gok-ror immune to poison??

why would he be?

The whole idea of this guy seems to be that he is one of the toughest SoBs in the Lizardmen, or even the warhammer world. Immune to KB and multi wound, but poisons can negate his toughness. It seems weird. He's easier for some skinks to take out than a unit of bloodletters (they have KB right?)

Roll a D6. The target unit takes
1- D6 S3 hits
2&3 - D6+1 S4 hits
4&5 - 2D6 S4 hits and the enemy unit has -1 WS and BS for their next turn
6 - 2D6 S5 hits and the enemy unit has -D3 WS and BS for their next turn
in addition when the solar engine is cast and not dispelled, lizardmen units within 6 inches gain a further +1 initiative for the turn.

putting this back in is just powering up the original idea...I tried to out-write the randomness I felt ruined its
use. I can see its okay for 1PD use but if im investing in a boundspell for more than that I want to be able to calculate the result..not a "roll to see if you cast it. roll to see what effect it has. roll to see how strong that effect is".
Its unreliable.

The idea was for it to be a 1pd spell. Make it power level 3 if thats better?
The original idea of the thing isn't bad. Unless you roll a 1, D6+1 S4 hits or better for 1pd is good.
Trying to remove randomness from a dice based game just doesn't make sense. I think if you did some maths on the numbers it'd be a pretty efficient spell. Just on an odd occasion youd get unlucky. But thats nothing different to having a combat lord who whiffs all his attacks against a unit champion.

Besides the idea of the Bastiladon was more for it to be a support monster. Not artillery!

The Bastiladon's thick, stone-like hide makes it extremely difficult to kill outright. Hits that do multiple wounds have their results halved and heroic killing blow is negated on a roll of 4+

Dont you see what you are doing? this is pure arms-race. "Cannons? make cannons not work"..next it will be a writer that makes "cannons that work against units that make cannons not work". Halving multiple wounds seems way to much as a "patch this problem" workout, and is hard to justify fluffwise, as its the bastiladons scales that are the hard part, not its flesh...which is hit since its wounded.

Remember its a generic 150pts monster you are designing, not a special character.

I wouldn't have it as a 150 pt monster. Closer to 200. The idea I had behind it is that it's a mobile support-tank that protects flanks and whilst it doesn't do that much damage on it's own its enough of a threat and buffs are enough of a threat for it to be a target.

The idea is not that it's scales are hard, but that it has a very dense bone structure and takes a lot to wound it. Look at all the artwork and fluff for them they seem to be like living fortresses (hence the name I suppose) but they're weaker than a stegadon. The dinosaurs they are based off were some of the toughest living things...ever.

The halving wounds I suggested is not new and is used on the stonehorn. It makes something that's become stupidly powerful and easy to use (cannons) have a half-counter (i.e they dont pop a 200+ pt model every turn)

Turn to p48 of the rulebook and honestly can you tell me they look like they'd be taken out by 1 measley cannonball?

The other alternative was to load them up with wounds (like 7 or 8) but that'd make them unkillable to anything BAR multiple war machines.

- The skink has a debuffing flower but throws it when he charges (has to roll to hit) and it doesn't affect lizardmen

I like the idea of throwing it at charge, but should also be a charge reaction to make sense. That it dosnt work against lizardmen makes no sense to me, why wouldnt it? also seems like a "lets patch that problem" move.

Im gonna go with the "models in base contact" option.

Yes it could be used as a charge reaction. But why would it affect lizardmen? I don't see the oracle spraying a flower juice in his mates face? :s

- The creature has BS 4 and a shooting attack which is S5 and poisoned doing D3 wounds. ALL it's attacks (shooting and combat) are Armour Piercing.
[/quote

Armour piercing? why? ..feels a little like a "it just needs to be better" fill in.

The idea of the armour piercing (sorry I didn't explain that) was that the venom from the Spinodon was acidic and could eat through armour.

The fluff for the creature says that basically almost everything that lives in the jungle is afraid of it. Even the oldbloods are so scared of it they dont ride it. The rules are so ludicrously far off it being dangerous it just needs more combat potential.

Hope that makes more sense

 

[hardyworld]

You asked to be critiqued, Phatmotha-phucka:

Bastiladon: Impervious Defence is completely unnecessary, especially since you already added a wound to the profile (and giving him a 1+ armour save instead would result in the EXACT SAME RESULT). Cleaner rules on the Beam of Chotec using your theme: 2D6 S3 hits with +1 Strength of every additional Solar Engine (friend or foe) within 24" (increased power doesn't need to be limited to those positioned in the frontal arc) and a -1 to hit modifier applied to the target unit until the next LM magic phase (always).

Troglodon: Pollen is completely unnecessary, not helping his profile. Poisonous Predator doesn't really work well in how the base warhammer rules are set up (and predatory fighter already accomplishes the same thematic idea). The +1 BS is very tough to justify on a longer range spitting attack on an eyeless creature. +1 attack and change in how the Primeval Roar work both are good (a point drop to 175 points would be very welcome on this unit with only these last 2 changes implemented).


Gor-rok:
Cold Ones to core makes a LOT of sense, but would need to be WS3 and probably no magic standard as a core unit (drop in base points to 28 to go with spears are 2 points?)

Your change in Predatory Fighter makes a lot of sense.

Your change in Kroxigors in Skrox units makes a lot of sense.

Your change in razordons units makes a lot of sense, although I wouldn't add poison at all (not thematic), but AP must be included.

Rather than the Slann challenge exception, I'd prefer an addition to the Sacred Duty rule saying: When a Slann has joined a Temple Guard unit, any Temple Guard model may accept challenges issued in close combat.

Ripperdactyls don't really need anything, they are what they are and aren't super expensive per model.

 

[Mr Phat]

(and giving him a 1+ armour save instead would result in the EXACT SAME RESULT)

not at all, minus to armour save would be less efficient.

Cleaner rules on the Beam of Chotec using your theme: 2D6 S3 hits with +1 Strength of every additional Solar Engine (friend or foe) within 24" (increased power doesn't need to be limited to those positioned in the frontal arc) and a -1 to hit modifier applied to the target unit until the next LM magic phase (always).

makes sense, but the frontal arc is needed for the concept to make serve its purpose:
Im trying to justify a forward-angled weapon on a back of something that fights with its behind first


well, anyway...on a different note:
critique much apriciated but im going to leave this thread behind now.
It has become a "everybody shares what they think it should do" instead of actual feedback on the ideas I am working on, which was the point of me sharing it in the first place.

All of a sudden I get why GW dont do it....its kinda frustrating to lay out a concept for actual feedback and receive
"NO NO NO! THIS IS HOW ITS DONE! ....ADD WINGS!"

if you feel like that go do your own stuff...

Thanks to those who stayed on topic.

 

[Spiney Norman]

Firstly, let me say I dont think there is anything wrong withe basti as he is, so I'll leave him alone except to say that you have totally changed the purpose of the beam of chotec spell. Currently you use the beam to blindside your opponent in the magic phase, forcing them into a difficult decision whether to dispel or not. That only works because the damage caused by the spell is random. All you do by giving the beam a concrete, high-power effect is you force your opponent to attempt the dispel rather than making him choose.

Overall I prefer GW's bastiladon to yours.

Now the troglodon. I like the idea that he roars whenever he charges, do you see this working on successful charges only, or failed charges as well?

I still can't get behind the idea of a shooting attack for something that is totally blind unless it is a breath weapon, which might be the answer, maybe a low S breath weapon that rerolls to wound or a breath weapon that wounds any target on a fixed number, ratjer like how poison works in 40k. It's kind of hard for me to imagine how the troglodon could be made to work without it either becoming really cheap or just being relagated to being the poor man's carnosaur.

 

[Tlaloc of Xhotl]

well, anyway...on a different note:
critique much apriciated but im going to leave this thread behind now.
It has become a "everybody shares what they think it should do" instead of actual feedback on the ideas I am working on, which was the point of me sharing it in the first place.

All of a sudden I get why GW dont do it....its kinda frustrating to lay out a concept for actual feedback and receive
"NO NO NO! THIS IS HOW ITS DONE! ....ADD WINGS!"

if you feel like that go do your own stuff...

Thanks to those who stayed on topic.

Part of critiquing is commenting on suggestions and improving them.

If you don' want actual discussion please put in the initial post "please do not suggest modifications to these ideas only whether you like them or not"

Side note: Ankylosaurs and the like didn't actually face backwards to fight with their tail (as far as we can tell) It would have been more side-on

 

[Caneghem]

I'd like to see a few things tweaked a little as well, here are some of my suggestions.

Carnosaurs and Troglodons have 7 wounds. Predatory Leap - Carnosaur gains impact hits (D6) against large targets. They still have 4+ armor. Carnosaur goes to WS4. Justification for W7 is that the thing is huge and will take a ton of punishment before it stops coming. Raising toughness or armor save or adding regen didn't seem fitting. Predatory Leap probably a 30 point upgrade.

Carnosaurs gain Feeding Frenzy.
At the end of any round of close combat, if a unit of the following types; monstrous beasts, monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, or monster, has been completely annihilated, the Carnosaur does not overrun or reform, but rather remains in place to devour the flesh of its slain foe. The Carnosaur regains D3 lost wounds, up to a maximum of the wounds on its profile. The Carnosaur need not have struck the final blow itself, but it must have started in base contact with a model of any of the listed types above, and no longer be engaged in combat at the end of the close combat round.

Bastiladon - 1+ armor, 4 wounds, Strength 5, no basic attacks on profile.
Thunderous Bludgeon - A Bastiladon in close combat may make one of two types of tail attacks in close combat. One option is the current roll to-hit (+1 in rear) at strength 10, except the attack also gains multiple wounds D3. The other option is a tail sweep, all enemy models in base contact take an initiative test or suffer a strength 6 hit. Strength 5 for thunderstomp. Beam of Chotec seems fine as it is.

Ark of Sotek - All units within 6" benefit from the "They're Everywhere!" special rule, as though a swarm were engaged in the same close combat as the unit. Units of swarms within 6" of the Ark gain +3 attacks and +3 initiative. Still able to raise swarms as currently. Shooting attack similar, but goes to 3D6 strength 1 hits instead.

Troglodon 250 points - As above, goes to 7 wounds. Skink Oracle grants 6" aura of 5+ ward against all ranged attacks. He can still be an Arcane Vassal, and upgrade to divining rod.

Primeval Roar - At the beginning of any close combat phase, if the Troglodon is engaged in close combat, it unleashes its primeval roar. All friendly Lizardmen units within 12 inches add D3 to their Predatory Fighter rolls. Roll a single D3 and apply this bonus to all units in range.

Blinding Spit - Fires like a stone thrower with a range of 18 inches. Any model touched by the template is automatically wounded on a 5+, with no armor saves allowed. Additionally, a unit suffering one or more unsaved wounds from the blinding spit takes a penalty of D3 to weapon skill, ballistic skill, initiative, and movement until the start of the Troglodon's next shooting phase.

Engine of the Gods -
Shield - Every unit within 12" is -1 to hit with shooting, and any shooting not rolling to hit must roll a 4+, or else the shot is wasted.

Arcane Configuration - Choose one Lore (including High Magic) at the start of the magic phase. All mages casting spells from that lore may reroll casting rolls of 1 for the entire phase.

Burning Alignment - Same bound spell, but does D6+2 hits instead of D6 per target.

I also agree with razordons getting AP and not taking a stand and shoot penalty.

Terradons - Riders can wear light armor for 2 points per model.
Ripperdactyls - Riders can wear light armor for 2 points per model.

Saurus Cav - Able to take magic banner up to 50 points.
Start at 30 points per model with spear/shield.
Add light armor for 3 points per model, and/or replace spears with halberds for 2 points per model.

Kroxigors - T5 - 60 points per model, otherwise the same

Skrox - Attacks made against kroxigors over the top of a rank of skinks count as supporting attacks, and all restrictions for supporting attacks apply.

Chameleon skinks
Master marksmen - If a unit of chameleon skinks is within 6 inches of its target unit, it may forgo its normal shooting to make a single precise shot. If the target is a multiple part model, the target unit uses its lowest Toughness rating instead of its highest, but each chameleon skink may fire only one shot.

 

[Mr Phat]

Part of critiquing is commenting on suggestions and improving them.

If you don' want actual discussion please put in the initial post "please do not suggest modifications to these ideas only whether you like them or not"

I am an educated concept designer, I am well aware on how critique works and have no problem with receiving it, good or bad.

What I DO have a problem with is when feedback dosnt keep itself to the concept and starts to turn things around instead of explaining what works and what dont.

This isnt good critique

"Hey, I painted this red picture, what do you think?"
"I think it should be all blue"

THIS is good critique

"Hey, I painted this red picture, what do you think?"
"I think the red needs to have this and this shade, but THAT corner works out for me"



..furthermore I have a problem with people misunderstanding the idea of the OP.
When I lay out two concepts for bastiladons and Troglodons, would someone kindly explain to me the H we are all of a sudden talking about Gor-rok, ripperdactyls, EotG and carnosaurs?

again, thanks to those who stayed sharp.

 

[Gor-rok]

thats actually pretty well put... ..good one n810

god I wish Games Workshop did this......

"Hey guys, what do you think of this idea?"
"We think this and this"
"oh...right, didnt think of that! we will take it into our considerations"

...If only they interacted with the fanbase instead of alienate it.....there so much to gain, also for them!

crowd-sourcing is real power when talking innovation and design..... and it can so easily be done without letting out secrets....

well, anyway...on a different note:
critique much apriciated but im going to leave this thread behind now.
It has become a "everybody shares what they think it should do" instead of actual feedback on the ideas I am working on, which was the point of me sharing it in the first place.

All of a sudden I get why GW dont do it....its kinda frustrating to lay out a concept for actual feedback and receive
"NO NO NO! THIS IS HOW ITS DONE! ....ADD WINGS!"

if you feel like that go do your own stuff...

Thanks to those who stayed on topic.

Yes, that is exactly why GW doesn't listen to people's opinions. It is also why we have a terrible new book. No ill will intended mate, but If you ask me (I know you didn't, but let's pretend ) "actual feedback" is saying how we'd change your ideas, in some cases drastically.

If bringing up other units derailed your thread, sorry. I doubt anyone got close to what they wanted out of this edition, and we're all brimming over with ideas of what we'd do to "fix" it. As stated earlier, the thread title should make it more clear that you don't want to hear how we'd do it, just what we think of how you'd do it. Sometimes that's the same thing, but oh well. I'm a welder, not a concept designer, so what do I know about the art of critique?

Take what you will from everybody's version of what needs fixing, maybe work some concepts into your modified rule set, or not. I'll be happy to take the time to test out whatever you come up with on the tabletop, as long as you'll take the time to listen to how we'd all do it differently

 

[Mr Phat]

"actual feedback" is saying how we'd change your ideas, in some cases drastically.

I agree on you say but I dont agree that it applies here, since the changes are for the designer.
feedback should come in the form of "this work and this dont" not "heres a new concept to paste instead"

I do agree that alternatives is good though, but the details should be less ^^

If bringing up other units derailed your thread, sorry.
dont worry, I understand where its coming from, obviously

I'll be happy to take the time to test out whatever you come up with on the tabletop, as long as you'll take the time to listen to how we'd all do it differently

well thats a deal! I am actually quite on my way...already made 3 new concepts.

- a new skink "priest"
- a new old blood mount / rare pick
- new infantry (though not core, still trying to fix that one without going the easy way and picking spawnings...but its actually harder than I thought)

 

[Tlaloc of Xhotl]

Part of critiquing is commenting on suggestions and improving them.

If you don' want actual discussion please put in the initial post "please do not suggest modifications to these ideas only whether you like them or not"

I am an educated concept designer, I am well aware on how critique works and have no problem with receiving it, good or bad.

What I DO have a problem with is when feedback dosnt keep itself to the concept and starts to turn things around instead of explaining what works and what dont.

This isnt good critique

"Hey, I painted this red picture, what do you think?"
"I think it should be all blue"

THIS is good critique

"Hey, I painted this red picture, what do you think?"
"I think the red needs to have this and this shade, but THAT corner works out for me"

I don't think you read my original post properly.

I agreed with a lot of your points but suggested a different option on how to do it. You seem to have taken it really badly because I didn't agree with you original idea.

You suggested that the Bastiladon needed to be more tough.

The way you implemented it was pointlessly changing one of the core mechanics when giving it a 1+ armour save would do exactly the same thing. Making it T6 was virtually the same thing but a different method.

Solar Engine doing 3D6 S5 hits on a pl3 bound spell? Soul Quench is 2D6 S4 on an 8+!
Far too much damage for a 1 dice risk free spell AND you gave it a longer range. AND you upgrade it even more simply if there is another solar engine nearby???
So for one power dice you almost necessitate a 2 dice dispel from the enemy every turn or risk losing any small unit, war machine, solo character (or lord on mount). Heck that could quite easily take out a small unit of knights.

The is so little risk in the one you suggested and almost guaranteed massive reward. In comparison the Arc of Sotek is massively lacklustre.

I agreed with your change to Primeval roar on the Trogladon.

I agreed with your addition of a debuffing flower but suggested that it shouldn't affect allies otherwise it would change a support monster into something you wouldn't actually want supporting a fight.

With the "Poisonous Predator" rule you seemed to be trying to make him into a poor man's carnosaur. But surely you'd have him supporting your infantry to make the most of his debuff and roar and most infantry are 1w?

..furthermore I have a problem with people misunderstanding the idea of the OP.
When I lay out two concepts for bastiladons and Troglodons, would someone kindly explain to me the H we are all of a sudden talking about Gor-rok, ripperdactyls, EotG and carnosaurs?

again, thanks to those who stayed sharp.

Ok, first off Ripperdactyls were mentioned TWICE in your first post

Secondly, I mentioned Gor-rok specifically on a SIDE NOTE in BRACKETS in reference to the bastiladon's toughness. This was just something I was musing on as I wrote the post

Thirdly, you wrote, and I quote "Thus I decided: im gonna work on my own Lizardmen Expansion, which I of course will share with you guys at some point... "
You suggests that the whole book will be done and not just 3 units. NOWHERE did you ask or even suggest that you would not like discussion or suggestions on other aspects of the book which are, frankly, sorely lacking. If you wanted discussion ONLY on the Bastiladon, Troglodona and Ripperdactyls that you mentioned then you need to say that EXPLICITLY or not get into a strop when they are.

Also. In your original post you wrote

I try to be a man of my word, so I have been trying to brainstorm a little and actually found that I enjoy writting fluf, making rules and developing.

but you have just posted

I am an educated concept designer

Surely if you're an educated concept designer you already knew that you enjoyed writing fluff and making rules and developing? Or are you referring to stuff like car design/more art based things?

 

[nicque-ta-ma]

It could always be better but can "it be done better" is the question. What is "it?" T6 would be the same as a dragon, T6 1+ save is the same as a steam tank. I like your idea of +1I being cumulative but for a ~150pts monster in special section I dont have a problem with the bastiladon.

For the Troglodon I think everyone agrees it is useless. Fluff wise there are two "ultimate predators" in Lizardmen, Carnosaur and Troglodon. They should be ultimate in different ways: Carnosaur for Power, Claws and Teeth, Troglodon for trickyness.

My take on troglodon:
BS 5 or 6. +1 to hit PF is passive, once per game +1 extends range to whole board (maybe but prob not stack with passive). Maybe also -1 to hit for enemy units in base contact. The passive effects could be pheromones (there are wasps, bees even some eagles i think that use this) and the "Roar" (name?) instead could be a "call to feed." I know komodo dragons are attracted by smell to a kill rather than called but... shut up