yep 5 of them have a damage profile of and a movement of 14 that is the same damage as 3 of our salamanders very good for a unit that is that cheap. it's cool that we will have a solid cav army in the game not many others can do that
Even better in the battalion. You can charge, use and aetherquartz for +1 to hit, the battalion then gives you reroll 1s to hit. so lances on the charge against infantry could be 3 attacks 2s rerolling 1s, 3s, -1 rend 1 damage Per model. Not to mention the sunmetal weapon potential aswell. MSU units if these in a battalion seems a very good and also thematic cavalry option
i just realized that sunmetal weapons do mortals on 6+ not nat 6s so with the +1 from aether quarts they are doing MW on 4s
I'd suggest giving the below podcast a listen for those interested in lumineth. Bad Dice is an old WHFB podcast, and lately they've come back to do this prerelease chats with the playtesting team. Seems like an elite army that relies pretty heavily on a few key buffs to really squeeze the most out of it's expensive units.
I would say you should take their predictions with a grain of salt. They didnt think Seraphon would be that strong and they kind of didnt really comment on the strength of Kroak, Dracothian's Tail and hardly mentioned Salamanders, which are all rather dominating atm. They thought Thunderlizards would be very strong too.. However, it is a good listen! Especially while painting or whatever. There have been so many Lumineth articles and leaks of rules that it can be difficult to picture the whole and correct thing yourself, so listening to those who have intensely playtested the army is valuable. Like if you took snippets of of all our rules it could also be super confusing and seem rather overwheling. They did echo much of what has been written here already, like super elite army with Teclics, Teclis being weak to alpha/long range deepstrike etc. They didnt even predict the book to be top 3.
Ok, I am bad at maths, but I still consider it Ok for a model with such stats. Kroak is a bit worse for less than half the price. Yes, he needs some support but even when fully buffed, he is cheaper than Teclis. Once again, Teclis has to be extremily lucky to one-shot a support hero with one cast. Roll a 6 on bury or roll a 5+ on innate spell and then 5+ again. Will it happen from time to time? Probably. But this is no automatic. 20 chameleon skinks for half his price will one-shot any support hero on average with overkill. Units like Irondrakes can one-shot all support heroes in range, not just one, etc. etc. Is it greater or lower, than the save value? I counted if it was lower. If greater, then squishy support heroes with 5+ save even more safe. Wardens are 1 in 1 Saurus defense-wise. Only skinks infantry, flyers and heroes are weaker than wardens. And Tzeentch is not squishy. Horrors have 4 wounds per model and can easily return slain models. They also have easy access to locus, in-built fnp. Even tzaangors are 2 wounds per model. I thought you were talking about 20-man units, which we are very likely to see. Anyway, I agree, that archers are good, but not whithout disadvantages. They can one-shot a support character with power from hysh, but their range is not infinite either. We already had to deal with mortek crawlers, which had higher range. And still you can cripple them with alpha or beta strike, before they reach the heroes. But not in terms of wounds in terms of liberators. Also, you've just compared a very good unit with one of the worst units in game. And compared to mortek, wardens are way worse. MG is absolutely indpendent. They have 6+ FnP from their unit leader, they can use combat abilities from him, giving them literally inbuilt rerolls to saves. In petrifex (which is the only subfaction used) they have 3+ rerollable in melee and 6+ FnP. In terms of offence they are going to be a bit worse, because mortal wounds are so good, but they are still very good both with blades and spears. And they generate extra hits on 6's. On top of that, they are immune to battleshock, while wardens will run easily. They only have 1 bravery above coalesced skinks. And all this goods are just for 10 more points. Potential buffs are potential buffs. They are conditional. And you were talking how self-sustaining they are. All of this, except for shining wall, comes from outside. We've seen all of this before. 4+ etherial? Grighast reapers - where they are now? 5+ FnP? DoK has one+rerollable with similar cost. -1 to-hit? You cannot run or charge and have to maintain formation. Aetherquartz? Only once per battle and you drop to Bv 5. And who will cast all this buffs, while teclis is busy one-shoting support heroes? Mages, which cost as much as 10 Wardens? I agree, that all of this things are strong, but in terms of modern AoS they are indeed squshy. This is the age of units which kill anything they touch and 4+ save won't save anyone. You can check theorycrafted lists on TGA LRR theread. They are really limited in choices. It may not be a weakness, but it is definitely a drawback. Just count - Teclis+cathallar+stone mage = 930 points, almost the half of an army. And you want a battalion and a cow and lots of archers and wardens to screen. You simply cannot take all of them. MSU = buffs applied to lesser number of models. And with bravery 6 even msu can be problematic. Kill half of the unit and move to another - other half has good chance to run on their own. Cathallar can target only one unit per turn. Having more casts=more chances to fail. Besides, only HH, kroak and nagash can probably stop the standard force with teclis. Anyway, not all units will be always in combat, so you can concentrate on unbinding Sentinels' PoH, for example. They may be not hungry, but they need these CP. They don't have easy access to rerolls. And they have problems with bravery. Only one CP per turn is not enough for everything. It is not a weakness when you have tons of bodies. When your infantry is 12/13 pts per wound, this can turn out problematic. LRR doesn't have cheap screens. They are very vulnerable to massive alpha-beta strikes. And this kind of justifies their deadlyness. Other top-tier factions are either cheaper or more survivable or have ways to return bodies/summon. If an elf dies, however, it dies forever and it dies easily. Keep in mind, however, that coalesced saurus knights are 6 attacks per body without any coniditons. And they are not limited to 1 wound models on foot in this case. Also, less then half of the attack deal MWs and bonus from the charge. Other half are just skinks' clubs. Anyway, I see no point in continuing the discussion. If you think, that LRR are broken beyond reason auto-play easy mod AoS, it is up to you. I, personaly, see nothing that we have not seen already. Pertifex Nagash is way worse than Teclis, but no one seem to take him on tournaments anymore. I bet the same will happen to Teclis in favor of more bodies/more agressive playstyle. Only time will tell how things really are.
Totally fair, but its still some of the best players in thr world talking about an army they have more experience with than anyone else. I dont think anyone ever gets it totally right this early on.
@Nart saurus knights get 7 attacks in coalesced as a base, and with a charge two of those attacks deal 2 damage. They are fairly well suited to take down lumineth cav due to the sheer weight in attacks, not counting their buffs you can tack on
I definitely think that we will be able to handle them, but they are still going to be very annoying due to the ability to shut down our magic better than most other factions while being very difficult to shut down themselves, combined with army wide mortal wound spam. I expect our heroes to die very early with their high hero sniping potential, making the rest of their army very difficult to deal with for our unbuffed units. I personally do not think they are the most broken thing ever, but still a definite example of GW making their new armies extremely strong with very few weaknesses. I think personally that at least for a while they will be top tier. Maybe not top 3, but I could definitely see them ousting the fyreslayers for the bottom spot in the top three. And finally, I do actually agree that in a purely competitive environment Teclis may not be used all that often, as the rest of their army is scary enough on their own that having more bodies on the field maybe more appealing and having a single one man army unit.
It is possible to hide our heroes at least for 1 turn. Teclis' range is not infinite and if we could hide from Mortek Crawlers, we can hide from Sentinels too. We can survive without any heroes, except kroak, which we have to protect with guard. The worst thing is that we are forced into our top-tier lists even more. I don't see how coalesced, for example, would be able to deal with Lumineth. They negate all of their strong points and can capitalize on weaknesses. We are forced even further in our independednt strong units - chameleons and salamanders. And take Kroak+Slann to have good chances to deny teclis' autocasts.
Greater, so a 4+ would get hurt on a 5 & 6, a 3+ would get hit on a 4, 5 & 6, a 6+ is immune. The main thing that makes it so scary is that it can do a lot of damage on stuff like a scar vet on cold one, a sunblood, or a vampire. Tzeentch is squishy as hell, there's like 2 or 3 models that have a save that's better than a 5+. The FNP isn't very good and more importantly is only on those who have shields, which means just basic tzaangor and acolytes, which even in a dedicated list is only going to cover part of it and crucial units won't benefit from it (On that note, why don't any of the mortal heroes carry a shield like that?). On top of that the mortals have fairly terrible bravery. Tzaangor do have 2 wounds, but at a 180 points they're also twice as expensive as saurus warriors. So 2 wounds should be expected. As for horrors, although 10 pink horrors buys you a lot of wounds you'l be losing them at an astonishing rate. Essentially they're just a weird gimmicky horde. They're still very squishy, there's just a lot of em. Locus is the only significant defensive ability Tzeentch seems to have. I kinda wish they had more stuff like that. The fact that there's other (more) broken stuff doesn't mean this can't be ridiculous itself And don't get me wrong, I'm sure counters will be invented sooner or later. I just don't like it when armies have no real disadvantages and the only way to "counter" is to either be better (e.g. have 31"+ range) or to just get them first and win before they do anything (e.g. alpha strike). Which seems to be the case for Lumineth, either bring stuff that's better and just trades favorably with them, or get to them first and win. No, but we were talking about bodies. Because that was what was being brought up as a counter that they bring few bodies. They also don't bring a whole lot of wounds, which is true. And might be a bit more of a problem, although they seem to bring a little below average amount of bodies they don't have the wounds to deal with loads of incoming damage when they do actually get wounded. This was more in reference to the general notion that it's a "squishy" army, they're fairly self-sustaining, more so than most arguably. But they still have plenty of options to buff that as well. In all honesty, that's depressing. The amount of powercreep is saddening. My point is more that that can still be more than enough to actually get your combo going. I mean we also can't put literally every unit we have into an army. That doesn't mean we can't make good lists. MSU also means the enemy wastes more attacks, have fun crashing your deathstar into something relativly worthless like 10 wardens while 3 units of archers and Teclis annihilate them from a safe position. They're relativly self suficient, which means you can put the buffs on units that matter while counting on the others to carry their own weight. The only downside that being MSU focussed has is that you won't be bringing deathstars along who can just instantly delete whatever you point them at, no matter how powerfull. You will actually have to have your units work together to take down big threats instead of the relative fire and forget method of just slamming a deathstar into it. Again, the powercreep in this game is saddening if it's gotten so bad that this is has become a genuine weakness as opposed to just a different playstyle. That's less bad a comparison than I imagined. I think the fact that they can get a whopping +26 attacks for a MSU as a passive effect kind of threw me off here as it's a rather impressive buff for something that's a selfbuff. To be honest, that might be the biggest issue that keeps triggering me. The advantages they have are effects that look amazing on paper. +26 attacks for a MSU cavalry unit as a selfbuff is obscene, every single unit in your army spamming mortal wounds on a hit of 5+/6+ is ridiculous, autocasting is stupidly usefull etc. But the "drawbacks" are much less pronounced and don't really jump out on paper. Yeah +26 attacks on a MSU is great, but with "only" 17 attacks baseline the end result still only puts them roughly on par with Saurus knights. And even if they have a lot of attacks they don't have the statline of say chaos knights. Teclis is ridiculous as a wizard, but if he's the only wizard you end up bringing the list as a whole still isn't that magical. Mortal wounds spam is excessive, but with most models only having 1-2 attacks that are sunstone weapons it should be manageable. It makes for a weird list where you when you read a new rule you constantly have to resist the urge to go "well this is ridiculous" because without this rule they're very underwelming. Also, it doesn't help that they've taken several mechanics that fit thematicly much nicer with other factions that they've just released an update for. That doesn't help with keeping an open mind . I don't expect them to become auto-play easy mode, I don't expect anything to ever reach that. I do however fear that it's yet another army that with certain overpowered mechanics pushes the game just slightly further in a certain direction, which then requires the next release to push even further in that direction in other to keep up. Causing the older/weaker armies & playstyles to fall further behind. Forcing you to play in a particular manner just to keep up. Which tends to be especially noticeable in a more casual setting, in a tournament setting they can at least count on overpowered mechanic X to be kept in check by some hard-counter to average out its win-average to a "healthy" value, allowing the broken nonsense to hide behind that "normal" winrating. It's especially easy to hide if there's 100's of opponents to play and only a handfull use the broken nonsense as only a few players in that particular tournament will be frustrated at having to deal with that nonsense. While in a casual setting this is far more difficult simply because it's not uncommon that noone can (or wants to) play the hardcounter. And even more importantly, if you only have say 10 players at your local store, it'l be far more obvious when Timmy keeps using his broken nonsense then when he does it at a tournament with 100 people. It wouldn't be the first game I've seen fall from grace because new releases kept pushing and pushing until it's barely recognizeable as the original.
I agree coalesced is weak vs Lumineth. I'm thinking of skink spam, terradons, a lot of bodies, a lot of ranged. They don't have a lot of bodies and a single Terradon deep strike could end Teclis, a support hero, or do big damage to their chaff.
Excuse me, they are anything, but "lost in astonishing rate". The more you kill them, the more they get back. 1's on Fate Dice, Blur Reality (risky, but very strong) and Emerald Lifeswarm - each of them return lots of horrors every turn, and each one is 4 wounds. And when you kill them, they can place models in any position they like, so they can stretch to tie units, can grab objectives. They are, in my opinion, they are the most broken unit in AoS now. Yes, that's exactly the point of my posts. They can be broken on paper, but on table there are lots and lots of coniditons you have to keep in mind. For example, I thought that Mortek Crawlers would be equal to death to any character on table. In fact, I never losts a character to a MC after 5-6 games against them. Not Kroak, not Slann, not even a skink priests. They ended up being too random, and I could just tie them in combat before they do anything significant. Same with LRR. Yes, they oppress all the tier 2 and below armies, but they are not suddenly over top tiers. IMO, even Seraphon are better on paper, until Kroak and salamanders are inevitably nerfed. There can be an unexpected combo, which will break any army on their way, but all the things we are talking about now - we've seen most of them already, one way or another. And they are counter-able.
Still think its a little silly to panic over an army with bravery 6 and a 5+ save, who doesnt have a single unit that breaks the <10 points per wound barrier. The only thing i don't like is 30in no los shooting, with mortal wounds on 6's to hit. It's just lazy and removes a ton of the skill that goes into working around threat ranges and terrain. All the whining is kind of boring, especially when its all just hypothetical hand waving. No one has seen them on the table outside of the playtesters. You heard it here first folks. LRR = death of sigmar. Pack up your things, sell your models, it's all over Obviously i'm just having a bit of fun, but come on dude. This type of sky is falling nonsense is old, boring, and doing no one any favors.