Also saurus warriors in AoS are not as awful as you might suspect. With the right synergies they are a very effective fighting force that can take down more expensive units
They're one of the few units that essentially don't work without going all-out on synergies. That alone makes em awefull. Any unit should at least be functional in it's intended niche without relying on external buffs or needing to be at maximum size. They're just not actually good at anything without all that external help.
That still requires you take 4 times the minimum size of the unit. Which is still a pretty steep investment just to get to "usefull".
330 is a heck of a lot for 1 useful battle line it really doesn't matter how cheap they make them if you have to take all 40 for it to work.
well they could go the same route they went with grots, those you simply get in increments of 20. At least then you got a whole bunch of bodies. But yeah, just rework the things already...
All saurus need is a 4+ save and the horde abilities to be permanent, that would make them excellent and very competitive
that would make them some of the best battle line 2 2" 3/4/-/1 1 1" 4/4/-/1 is realy good for cheap battle line 2 1" 3/3/-/1 1 1" 4/4/-/1 compares to some eleates like sword masters. we are sooo close to being good but our stuff requires them not to die and they die in droves.
we are one of the most fragile factions in the game without reroles to saves (witch we get from one 4 wound wizard, half the time) we compair to skaven SKAVEN we have the same durability as the rat men who ware no armor! and they are cheaper! the heck is GM thinking. (manly it's the nerfing of the shield spell that did it just another reason we need an update.)
Agreed, we really need some armor to be added with basic warriors getting a 4+ like they did in fantasy and guard getting a 3+. If that was all that was done saurus would be way better than the competition
meh, warriors need to be both sturdier and hit harder baseline. Personally I'd love for the sunclaw battalion bonusses to become baseline. That extra bite attack and -1 rend give just enough to actually get a hit or two in instead of it all glancing off the any halfway decently armoured foe. Give them a 4+ save, a shield that works against all levels of rend and they're finally decently useable as battleline. As for guards, they should just be warriors with more wounds & a ward save. Give them maybe an extra attack to Ensure they're actually more elite than regular warriors and we're golden. The bonus damage from the eternal starhost can be dropped as it's massivly out of place anyway (not to mention awkward in use)
so to confirm you want a 1 2" 4/4/-1/1 2 1" 5/4/-/1 or 1 1" 4/3/-1/1 2 1" 5/4/-/1 attack line? well that doesn't make them good but definitely better. is the hord bonus still in play?
I would hope so, but even then removing that extra sunclaw tag would be huge in reducing the points needed to make them run viably. However warriors do have a good match up against other horde units
yeah, with the sunclaw bonus a 10 man squad of wariors actually manages to be a threat to 5 liberators, which I feel are a good benchmark for what independent battleline should roughly be able to compete with. And it's mostly a matter of luck (and who goes first) who'l win. It's not like they'l be outputting 10's of hits per turn with the extra rend and bites. And you don't even need to bonus damage against daemons. But it has 2 major advantages compared to now: 1) The rend allows them to actually get through a 4+ save. 2) The increased volume of attacks ensures they average out much smoother. So you're far less likely to miss everything, and also far more likely to get a decent round in where they actually perform well. Currently a "lucky" round consists of 5 hits, and an average round is 2-4 with the extra attacks 5-7 hits be a normal round and a "lucky" round would be 8-10 hits. Right now, they struggle to hurt anything with a save that's better than 5+, they have too few attacks for a smooth curve making it quite likely for them to just miss everything. And with how much of their bellcurve is stuck on 5 hits or less they're barely worth paying attention to as you don't even really need to account for them getting a "lucky" round in. The horde bonus can remain, though I despise horde mechanics and would rather see something different. The sharp (and arbitrary) cut-off point makes it annoying to use and can mean that certain units lose a lot of power far too easily. Also, it means minimum sized units are taxed for the potential of having this ability due to how GW balances points, which I don't like. Also, it makes it far too obvious which unit you should attack. If nothing else I'd want horde-mechanics to work based on the entire amount of model X on the board. So if you have 3 20 man units of saurus you'd have the bonus on all of em. That I'd like more at least. Also needless to say the sunclaw starhost would also have to be reworked if this'd happen
i mean you can compare them with liberators but they aren't any good either. against rend 1 enamys they are just as durable,they have worse bravery, half the modles witch hurts, they are just as slow as we are now, they cost more, and there attacks are just our clubs with twice the attacks and half the models. if it wasent for there great mauls they would be a worse choise then warriors in every way. with this you would still need the horde bonus because a 5+ to hit on 2/3 of you'r attacks (no Rend) is just awful it means in a party of 10 only 3-4 attacks would go thru on 20 attacks that is baaaaad. there weapons would be good but you would need that +1 to hit to make the bights do anything. as i see it it would be better to drop the bight entirely and make the mane weapon 2 attacks with rend 1 no horde bonus this makes them fairly good for mid level infantry and usable in 10 mans. paired with the 4+ save and the shield improvements this makes them a descent (not great) block that you don't wan't to charge into.
The reason I use a 5 man squad as liberators as comparison is cuz I view those as the very definition of what a basic general purpose battleline unit should be. They're sturdy enough to hold their ground unsupported for 1-2 turns against most opponents. And they pack enough of a punch that they can't be ignored and allowed to just rampage through your lines. It's not a deathstar, but it's not a harmless unit like skinks either. On the other hand, they're not so sturdy as to be nigh unkilleable & they don't deal enough damage to be a priority. They're the very definition of general purpose line infantry that you want your enemy to waste time fighting while your important units go and do something usefull like capture an objective or kill someone important. The point is to make a 10 man squad of warriors capable of functioning in that role. The point is not to make them a unit that's scary enough that you don't want to fight them. Line-infantry isn't ever going to be so scary that you want to avoid unless they massivly outnumber you (or are super well supported). Guard are supposed to fill that niche of our "scary" infantry that you want to avoid. The point is to have them be capable of holding an objective, of threatening a lone hero, of being more than a mild inconvenience when blocking a deathstar or behemoth. Also, giving them a high volume of attacks with bad hit and wound rolls has a couple of advantages. The first is that it gives a much smoother curve allowing the unit to be reliable without immeadiatly being broken, and reliability is kind of what I'm going for here . The second is that it allows the unit to have a fairly high potential threat, while the average output remains low. Yes, they'l only get in 3-4 bites most times, so they're not a massive threat. But with a potential 20 it's not safe to let them near your squishier things. And thirdly, it makes it a lot more difficult to create some OP combo with a few minor external buffs. Getting that 3-4 to 5-6 isn't too difficult, but going to 7 or 8 let alone past that is going to require some decent buffs. And lastly, it allows them to take more significant advantage of buffs that require smooth curves (e.g. starpriest's venom or a scar vet's on carno command ability) Also your suggestion of 2 weapon attacks with rend but no bites barely scores more hits, means losing acces to our starpriest's venom, reduces the potency of other buffs (e.g. the afforementioned command ability) & is going to be less smooth in output (and with less potential) due to the lower total of attacks I'd prefer my 10 weapons with -1 rend and 20 bites.
all of this is fair but it will end up with them being ignored for skinks again they have to do something skinks don't they ether have to hold till the end of time witch is guards job or they have to do Damage. we don't have any damage units so i think warriors should do it well and Krox should do it better make them cost more thats fine but we need a hammer and line infantry doesn't have to be bad at killing witch elves, half of skaven(the above isn't nearly as scary as these guys), namarty thralls, tzasngors, great swords (witch is what the above is based on),vulkite beserkers, ard boys and more all do fairly well in melee and a lot of them are more durable to. as for math the difference between 10 and 20 vs 20 - is 0 hits if you use clubs but -1 rend makes it much better smoother bell curve yes but you wan'ted consistency and reroles are mutch better for 4+ then 5+. seeing as this is based on a re-wright you can change the synergies to work with the new profile that's not a problem our command traits need an over haul anyway (6s to wound is a bad buff for warriors to relie on any way it gives you 1ish double wounds in 20 attacks its better on a carno) to adres the liberator point warriors already match them in all most every way we do more damage but are only less tanky when rend isn't involved with drums we are faster and we have better bravery warriors are better and are still bad.