AoS NEW *rumor*

[samheim]

One thing I am really starting to dislike about AoS is the battletomes.

A better way of doing things, would just be to release new warscoll cards, with all the rules on the cards. At the moment it means the stats for the troops rarely change, but you just get more buffs with the updated tomb.

The game becomes super complicated, hard to keep track of and extremely unbalanced. The Soulwars box set I really like because the 8 page rules and Warscolls, mean I can play the game with other noobs and not completely loose them.

I hope Seraphon do get a set of new Warscrolls when ever the new tome drops. I will be buying them and not the tome if so.

Warcry shows that if something is simple and well designed, then it becomes more enjoyable and more a test of skill.

In WHFB, one thing they got right, was you got all the magic items and spells on cards. You could place your card's next to the character who owned them, so you didn't forget to check them.

The tome, battalions + 1 million types of buff's is a good example of how to make a game really tedious. Also they have no hope in hell of balancing them. So they just add loads of bull shit new rules to every new tome, so people say "wow, war songs" Or "six different cities with unique buffs!".

Its really garbage. Imo just update and re balance the basic units stat lines. Have all buffing kept to characters or magic items. Get rid of all stacking. One buff can only be active at once.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

One thing I am really starting to dislike about AoS is the battletomes.

A better way of doing things, would just be to release new warscoll cards, with all the rules on the cards. At the moment it means the stats for the troops rarely change, but you just get more buffs with the updated tomb.

whooo ok the battle tome does a lot more then just war scrolls it's the mane sorce of back ground and lore. it gives helpful paining guides for new people and sceems for more experienced players. it has artifacts and most importantly aleagence abilities the mane thing that sets armies apart and makes them interesting. war kry has them to just a lot smaller for a much smaller game . i bought the seraphon codex in spite of the fact that the rules in it are all out of date for everything else in the book.

The game becomes super complicated, hard to keep track of and extremely unbalanced. The Soulwars box set I really like because the 8 page rules and Warscolls, mean I can play the game with other noobs and not completely loose them.

I hope Seraphon do get a set of new Warscrolls when ever the new tome drops. I will be buying them and not the tome if so.

then just use the app cards have the same problem of being static

Warcry shows that if something is simple and well designed, then it becomes more enjoyable and more a test of skill.

it's a mater of scale is checkers a better game then chess because it's simpler? no they're just diferent games that use the same board people like them for diferent reasons and if you think that war kry is just simpler your ignoring bsttle plans war kry has vastly more complicated ones

In WHFB, one thing they got right, was you got all the magic items and spells on cards. You could place your card's next to the character who owned them, so you didn't forget to check them.

a lot of people model those on there model having cards on the table would get dificult when in combat being sarounded meens no place for the card

The tome, battalions + 1 million types of buff's is a good example of how to make a game really tedious. Also they have no hope in hell of balancing them. So they just add loads of bull shit new rules to every new tome, so people say "wow, war songs" Or "six different cities with unique buffs!".

this acualy makes the game easier to balance wile making armies be different (and easier to get wrong GW is very good at screwing up) lets take a very simple sample. your guy has 1 hp my guy has 1 hp if they hit they deal 1 damage and and they roll 1 d6 to see if they hit. ok as simple as you can make it the problem is if you want it to be fare they both have to hit on a 5+ this makes them the same guy. now this works lots of games have the same peices but we are playing a war game these are units from factions with persinality lets see if we can make it better. ok lets ad a save to the units now i can make the hit roll different and this guy seems to be much tankyer which fits he is in full plate armor. now we add a wound roll so some guys seem more powerful hit harder wile others seem more capable of hitting .this is all feel not balance but the more rules you have to work with the more you can tweek to make perfect balance. the gole is between 45 and 55% win rate and most armies fall into that braket the fact that they release tomes at different times means its hard to make it perfect.
now don't get me wrong it is harder for new people to get into but thats always been true of wargames different people like different things and a lot of people like the complexity same reason why people like table top rpgs its fun to find and play good things and when you play well it's a wonderful feeling. and rules bloat is a thing we need to be careful of but i don't think we have gotten to that point yet

Its really garbage. Imo just update and re balance the basic units stat lines. Have all buffing kept to characters or magic items. Get rid of all stacking. One buff can only be active at once.

this would make units really boring and very simuler just in cities it would make phoenix gaurd,great swords,long beards and black gaurd the same unit and thats in just 1 faction. "oh hay those are kool models what do they do?" "the same as you'res mine are just green"... "oh"

 

[Acehilator]

And Chonicles of Riddick is one of the best movies ever, criminally underrated. I actually played the xbox game, Escape from Butchers Bay.

When I was playing it, I thought, this game has the one of the best stories I ever seen in a game!

The reason was it was actually a script from a Riddick film they didn't make and put it into the game instead.

So if GW decide to rip off Riddick, I can only accuse them of good taste.

You made three mistakes...

 

[Canas]

then just use the app cards have the same problem of being static

Meh, apps are a pain to use for stuff like this. Too much going back and forth between different cards and most phones do not have a screen that fits the entire card.

a lot of people model those on there model having cards on the table would get dificult when in combat being sarounded meens no place for the card

Still easier than going by memory. But yeah, they need to figure out a better way to keep track of various effects.

this acualy makes the game easier to balance wile making armies be different

No, it does not. The more effects you throw in the harder it becomes to balance simply because you have more effects that can potentially interact. It also becomes vastly easier to create something abusive simply because there's more available combinations to stack. The only thing throwing loads and loads of effects together achieves is that it can obfuscate inbalance behind meaningless complexity and that people start claiming things like "yeah it's super powerfull and oppresive, but it's balanced cuz it's difficult cuz I need to combine 10 different effects". As well as just make things a general confusing mess.

Obviously, it's a balancing act, and various effects can add to an army's personality. But you have to be very carefull, and in these situations less is often more.

the gole is between 45 and 55% win rate and most armies fall into that braket the fact that they release tomes at different times means its hard to make it perfect.

Winrate is absolutly meaningless as far too many things factor in that have nothing to do with balance & fun. Not to mention that even ignoring that it ultimatly says nothing about if it's good as a game. Guessing a coinflip has a 50% winrate, that doesn't make it a good mechanic to balance a game around.

Also, for an example as how winrate isn't all that valuable; look at bloodbowl. The teams are not really balanced. With certain teams specificly made to be easy to play with & relativly reliably win & certain teams, like halflings specificly made to be terrible. Yet it results in a fun game, that overal feels fair. Despite the balance obviously being skewed.

now don't get me wrong it is harder for new people to get into but thats always been true of wargames different people like different things and a lot of people like the complexity same reason why people like table top rpgs its fun to find and play good things and when you play well it's a wonderful feeling. and rules bloat is a thing we need to be careful of but i don't think we have gotten to that point yet

Sadly people often mistake complexity for "interesting". You can make a game supercomplex to figure out with 100's of stats and mechanics, but the only thing you're really achieving here is that you turn it into a math excercise. Someone will figure out the optimal solution (and that person might enjoy it, which good for him ), and then people will just stick with that, making 99% of that complextiy utterly meaningless.

Also, warhammer is super suspectible to rule bloat. Just look at the amount of rules Seraphon alone have to re-roll hit rolls of one, or the amount of artifacts that noone ever really uses. You could remove a lot without really losing anything.

this would make units really boring and very simuler just in cities it would make phoenix gaurd,great swords,long beards and black gaurd the same unit and thats in just 1 faction. "oh hay those are kool models what do they do?" "the same as you'res mine are just green"... "oh"

Units that fullfill the same role should be similar. Especially if the armies don't have a wildly different styles of warfare. So yeah, phoenix guard, greatswords and blackguards are basicly the same cuz they are supposed to do more or less the same thing on the battlefield with more or less the same sort of support from their allies.

 

[SeraphonArmy]

No seraphon this year...

 

[samheim]

Meh, apps are a pain to use for stuff like this. Too much going back and forth between different cards and most phones do not have a screen that fits the entire card.


Still easier than going by memory. But yeah, they need to figure out a better way to keep track of various effects.


No, it does not. The more effects you throw in the harder it becomes to balance simply because you have more effects that can potentially interact. It also becomes vastly easier to create something abusive simply because there's more available combinations to stack. The only thing throwing loads and loads of effects together achieves is that it can obfuscate inbalance behind meaningless complexity and that people start claiming things like "yeah it's super powerfull and oppresive, but it's balanced cuz it's difficult cuz I need to combine 10 different effects". As well as just make things a general confusing mess.

Obviously, it's a balancing act, and various effects can add to an army's personality. But you have to be very carefull, and in these situations less is often more.


Winrate is absolutly meaningless as far too many things factor in that have nothing to do with balance & fun. Not to mention that even ignoring that it ultimatly says nothing about if it's good as a game. Guessing a coinflip has a 50% winrate, that doesn't make it a good mechanic to balance a game around.

Also, for an example as how winrate isn't all that valuable; look at bloodbowl. The teams are not really balanced. With certain teams specificly made to be easy to play with & relativly reliably win & certain teams, like halflings specificly made to be terrible. Yet it results in a fun game, that overal feels fair. Despite the balance obviously being skewed.


Sadly people often mistake complexity for "interesting". You can make a game supercomplex to figure out with 100's of stats and mechanics, but the only thing you're really achieving here is that you turn it into a math excercise. Someone will figure out the optimal solution (and that person might enjoy it, which good for him ), and then people will just stick with that, making 99% of that complextiy utterly meaningless.

Also, warhammer is super suspectible to rule bloat. Just look at the amount of rules Seraphon alone have to re-roll hit rolls of one, or the amount of artifacts that noone ever really uses. You could remove a lot without really losing anything.


Units that fullfill the same role should be similar. Especially if the armies don't have a wildly different styles of warfare. So yeah, phoenix guard, greatswords and blackguards are basicly the same cuz they are supposed to do more or less the same thing on the battlefield with more or less the same sort of support from their allies.

Yes bravo, very many interesting points.

The magic item and relic thing is really a waste of time. They should have cards, that they distribute the magic items randomly before the game, if they are going to make some of the magic items pointless and a few over powered.

The Soulwars warscroll cards are ideal. They should make that the one rule they follow. Everything has to fit on the warscroll card. No fold out one's either.

The game feels so much better to new players, when you hand them the cards, and they can look over them on their own. They discover their units abilities for themselves.

V's handing them a 200 page battle tome before the game. I think Warhammer Totalwar does things really well. They readjust the meta all the time, but buffing or de buffing units.

Battle tomes + General's handbooks + FAQ's, means I ignore everything outside the core rules and a unit's warscroll card. And its a good game when I play like that. I am thinking about adding endless spells to the game.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Meh, apps are a pain to use for stuff like this. Too much going back and forth between different cards and most phones do not have a screen that fits the entire card.

the rules change so often that any phisical media is going to be out dated very soon if you like the cards fine i just like my stuff not to be wrong.

No, it does not. The more effects you throw in the harder it becomes to balance simply because you have more effects that can potentially interact. It also becomes vastly easier to create something abusive simply because there's more available combinations to stack. The only thing throwing loads and loads of effects together achieves is that it can obfuscate inbalance behind meaningless complexity and that people start claiming things like "yeah it's super powerfull and oppresive, but it's balanced cuz it's difficult cuz I need to combine 10 different effects". As well as just make things a general confusing mess.

Obviously, it's a balancing act, and various effects can add to an army's personality. But you have to be very carefull, and in these situations less is often more.


Winrate is absolutly meaningless as far too many things factor in that have nothing to do with balance & fun. Not to mention that even ignoring that it ultimatly says nothing about if it's good as a game. Guessing a coinflip has a 50% winrate, that doesn't make it a good mechanic to balance a game around.

Also, for an example as how winrate isn't all that valuable; look at bloodbowl. The teams are not really balanced. With certain teams specificly made to be easy to play with & relativly reliably win & certain teams, like halflings specificly made to be terrible. Yet it results in a fun game, that overal feels fair. Despite the balance obviously being skewed.

your right win rates are pointless thats why slaneshes 80% win(factoring out mirror matches) rate is fine and it's both perfectly balanced and fun to play against balance is not soly about fun its about how fair a game is(witch most people attribute as one of the mane things that make games fun but whatever lets ignore that.) in a perfect world it would be 50% like most board games but that would require the armies to be the egsact same and we don't wan't that. more rules means that it's easier to screw up yes but the more you have to work with the finer the balance can be you yourself have complained about the lack of tuffnes in AoS. yes some rules are bad and yes GW is bad at making them equal out but my point wasn't to have all the rules it was that more is better then none. i like alliance abilities i like endless spells i like mount traits and conclaves. all of witch wold be gone if we got rid of battle tombs and just did cards which was what i was responding to.

Sadly people often mistake complexity for "interesting". You can make a game supercomplex to figure out with 100's of stats and mechanics, but the only thing you're really achieving here is that you turn it into a math excercise. Someone will figure out the optimal solution (and that person might enjoy it, which good for him ), and then people will just stick with that, making 99% of that complextiy utterly meaningless.

Also, warhammer is super suspectible to rule bloat. Just look at the amount of rules Seraphon alone have to re-roll hit rolls of one, or the amount of artifacts that no one ever really uses. You could remove a lot without really losing anything.

we only have 2 ways of rerolling 1s constellations and the spell every one hates these are redundant due to the AB but he can't be every where and constilations is map wide and only hapens 1/3 of the time . blote is a thing but we haven't reached it yet we don't have an appendicitis of terms like old fantasy does and dispight the redundancy in our book we are ooooold and most of the new books dispight having more rules don't have this problem

Units that fullfill the same role should be similar. Especially if the armies don't have a wildly different styles of warfare. So yeah, phoenix guard, greatswords and blackguards are basicly the same cuz they are supposed to do more or less the same thing on the battlefield with more or less the same sort of support from their allies.

but those units arnt the same with abilities nor are they used for the same thing my argument was that you shouldn't strip abilities from units becous it takes different guys with different jobs and makes them the same great swords are hammers hitting all the time and doing mortal wounds phoenix guard are anvils taking much more punishment then great swords but having a worse save then eturnal guard who cant stand up to mortals like phoenix guard.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Yes bravo, very many interesting points.

The magic item and relic thing is really a waste of time. They should have cards, that they distribute the magic items randomly before the game, if they are going to make some of the magic items pointless and a few over powered.

that is a terable idea even if all items wher just as good if it wasn't on the right guy it would still suck carnasaurs don't need +1 to cast

Battle tomes + General's handbooks + FAQ's, means I ignore everything outside the core rules and a unit's warscroll card. And its a good game when I play like that. I am thinking about adding endless spells to the game.

so you ignore half the game? huh how do you play seraphon then we kind of suck without summoning and teleports

 

[Killer Angel]

we only have 2 ways of rerolling 1s constellations and the spell

Handlers w razordons
Scarvet w saurus knights
Dread saurian vs monsters
Stagadon's Alpha skinks
wide to hit rerolls with astrolith bearer / Thunderquake / rippers / terradons

we have so many ways to reroll 1s and to hit, that is pretty common to "waste" an effect because of the other ones already in action.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Handlers w razordons
Scarvet w saurus knights
Dread saurian vs monsters
Stagadon's Alpha skinks
wide to hit rerolls with astrolith bearer / Thunderquake / rippers / terradons

we have so many ways to reroll 1s and to hit, that is pretty common to "waste" an effect because of the other ones already in action.

your right my bad

 

[Killer Angel]

your right my bad

No problem

 

[samheim]

Also, for an example as how winrate isn't all that valuable; look at bloodbowl. The teams are not really balanced. With certain teams specificly made to be easy to play with & relativly reliably win & certain teams, like halflings specificly made to be terrible. Yet it results in a fun game, that overal feels fair. Despite the balance obviously being skewed.

I think the thing about Blood Bowl is that its easy to understand the core rules of the game. Move, pass, catch. Then the unit cards had the stats on and people would get the idea very quickly.

With AoS, people don't even really understand how their own army works most of the time, let alone their opponents.

The Cities of Sigmar is a good example of this. An army that is all things to all people. With flying Steam Tanks and two spell wizards.

So by adding six cities to choose from, they made it six times more complicated.

I can imagine trying to play a game and explain that my steam tanks can fly because they are from a certain city. Imagine how frustrating and dumb that would sound if you had that rule sprung on you middle of the game.

They should copy Totalwar more. Software uses Keywords, AoS got that right. But it uses all the wrong Keywords. Follow what works.

Infantry, Chariot, Monster, Calvary, Warmachine etc.Not make 50 thousand of them.

Offer buffs against certain units. At the moment spears don't do anything against cav. Shooting sucks. Hero's are stupidly over powered.

 

[Imrahil]

I am not sure of this got through here already (can't find it), so more Ogors:

Looking nice

Gr, Imrahil

 

[samheim]

so you ignore half the game? huh how do you play seraphon then we kind of suck without summoning and teleports

Well I pick less then optimal lists for the armies I play (my opponent uses my Seraphon Army).


Rules should be modular. Game design should be modular.

Seraphon teleport and summoning are not modular, they basically remake the core rules. Buffs should + 1 or - 1 things. Summoning needs to work the same way for every army in the game.

Teleportation if it exists should be represented by an endless spell. When AoS just randomly pulls out it's hat, that one faction doesn't follow the core rules for movement, instead the whole army can teleport. Then your not really playing the same game as everyone else anymore.

Simplicity is always harder to do. Because if something is simple then people will know if its good or not. When its complicated its easy to say "Well you just don't understand it."

 

[Imrahil]

and the new Rumour engine:

Looks something Cities of Sigmar (snipers) to me.

Gr, Imrahil

 

[ILKAIN]

Well I pick less then optimal lists for the armies I play (my opponent uses my Seraphon Army).


Rules should be modular. Game design should be modular.

Seraphon teleport and summoning are not modular, they basically remake the core rules. Buffs should + 1 or - 1 things. Summoning needs to work the same way for every army in the game.

Teleportation if it exists should be represented by an endless spell. When AoS just randomly pulls out it's hat, that one faction doesn't follow the core rules for movement, instead the whole army can teleport. Then your not really playing the same game as everyone else anymore.

Simplicity is always harder to do. Because if something is simple then people will know if its good or not. When its complicated its easy to say "Well you just don't understand it."

I really don't understand why you play this game. not trying to be mean, but you basically hate everything about it that make it THIS game lol

 

[ILKAIN]

Well I pick less then optimal lists for the armies I play (my opponent uses my Seraphon Army).


Rules should be modular. Game design should be modular.

Seraphon teleport and summoning are not modular, they basically remake the core rules. Buffs should + 1 or - 1 things. Summoning needs to work the same way for every army in the game.

Teleportation if it exists should be represented by an endless spell. When AoS just randomly pulls out it's hat, that one faction doesn't follow the core rules for movement, instead the whole army can teleport. Then your not really playing the same game as everyone else anymore.

Simplicity is always harder to do. Because if something is simple then people will know if its good or not. When its complicated its easy to say "Well you just don't understand it."

also, again without trying to be mean, you have already established that you don't care to play by the rules, admittedly scooping up dice before your opponent can see them, and lying about the rules a unit has... so why would the rules contained in a battletome that 99.99% of all the other players enjoy playing by even matter to you? your declaration of games need to be 'modular' and bland is really just kinda… selfish. you would literally be the only person happy with those suggested changes.

 

[samheim]

I really don't understand why you play this game. not trying to be mean, but you basically hate everything about it that make it THIS game lol

I like the model's and most of the lore. I would like the game to be good so I have something to do with my models.

The more I play the game now (which is not very often) the more I start to realise how obtuse and impenetrable it is to new players.

I do think that is why GW is popular. It has an appeal that each army has its own rules and own play style. And a lot of people love the complexity. Thats what Aos and 40 K are really about. Complexity. People get off on remembering all the rules and buffs etc.

Warcry is more about making a fun game, that is enjoyable. Could it be done with AoS?

Maybe. The first thing that needs to go, is the to hit, to wound, to save rolls. That can be squished down to one roll.

Then they need to take the battle tomes they are working on at GW's headquarters, I say take it out of what ever nerds hands who is writing one at the moment. Take those tomes and use them to wipe their ass with, because that's all they are really good for.

Heroquest is a good fun game to play. Monopoly is a good fun game. Risk is a good fun game.

AoS and 40K 8th they almost had it with the reduced rules. But then they started to clog it all up again.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

and the new Rumour engine:

Looks something Cities of Sigmar (snipers) to me.

Gr, Imrahil

with the scull there i think it looks more 40k maby a new assassin or a hip weapon for a space marine

 

[samheim]

also, again without trying to be mean, you have already established that you don't care to play by the rules, admittedly scooping up dice before your opponent can see them, and lying about the rules a unit has... so why would the rules contained in a battletome that 99.99% of all the other players enjoy playing by even matter to you? your declaration of games need to be 'modular' and bland is really just kinda… selfish. you would literally be the only person happy with those suggested changes.

No it would be more fun. Because more people would be interested in it and want to play the game. I say that it's you who is selfish, because you want to lock new people out by sticking a 2000 page learning curve in their path.

I am saying, any game that needs 2000 pages worth of rules, Faq's, battle tomes etc, needs to be taken away and burned on a bonfire. Even if people protest and say they like those games. They need them taken away for their own benefit. No man should like playing overly complex games, unless he is just trying to purposefully be awkward and difficult.