AoS NEW *rumor*

[Erta Wanderer]

I like the model's and most of the lore. I would like the game to be good so I have something to do with my models.

you seem to be the only person hear who thinks it's not

The more I play the game now (which is not very often) the more I start to realise how obtuse and impenetrable it is to new players.

AoS doubled it's player count last year not shur it's as hard to get into as you say. also majic the gathering is even more complecs and its doing gangbusters

I do think that is why GW is popular. It has an appeal that each army has its own rules and own play style. And a lot of people love the complexity. Thats what Aos and 40 K are really about. Complexity. People get off on remembering all the rules and buffs etc.

or it's just not for you maby it isn't about remembering rule but that some ultimately like it.

Warcry is more about making a fun game, that is enjoyable. Could it be done with AoS?

Maybe. The first thing that needs to go, is the to hit, to wound, to save rolls. That can be squished down to one roll.

no that would gut the whole sistem AoS was built with that in mind you would have to start from the ground up just play warcry you seem to like that one

Then they need to take the battle tomes they are working on at GW's headquarters, I say take it out of what ever nerds hands who is writing one at the moment. Take those tomes and use them to wipe their ass with, because that's all they are really good for.

well that was unesisery and childish

Heroquest is a good fun game to play. Monopoly is a good fun game. Risk is a good fun game.

AoS and 40K 8th they almost had it with the reduced rules. But then they started to clog it all up again.

i think that your taking your tast and making it objective quality.

 

[GreenyRepublic]

Samheim is a troll who shouldn't be taken seriously - in one of his first ever posts on this forum he complained about how the game was going to be dumbed down to oblivion because girls were getting involved, now he's saying it's too complex? No idea what this guy's about.

 

[samheim]

you seem to be the only person hear who thinks it's not

AoS doubled it's player count last year not shur it's as hard to get into as you say. also majic the gathering is even more complecs and its doing gangbusters

or it's just not for you maby it isn't about remembering rule but that some ultimately like it.

no that would gut the whole sistem AoS was built with that in mind you would have to start from the ground up just play warcry you seem to like that one

well that was unesisery and childish

i think that your taking your tast and making it objective quality.

What's happening with AoS now is what happened with all the previous versions of 40k and WHFB. They got more and more complex and became less and less fun. The problem is, the fanbois, constantly beg and demand new rules. They have the loudest voice.

GW then add's more complexity to appease them. And then everybody who would have enjoyed the game, get board of it and move onto other things.

It's easier to get started building your own circuit boards, then it is to play AoS. Electronics's follows simple principles, the complexity only comes from sticking lots of simple things together.

AoS introduces new principles randomly every month, that contradict old principles.

It's like, imagine you jump in your car to drive to the super market. You goal is to buy some food. Well half way into your journey, the driving rules all change. Now a red light means stop, but only if you are driving a red car whilst wearing a blue bonnet.

Then you get to the super market, but your not allowed to enter, because the new rules are, that customers will only be admitted through the fire escape if they have already notified the super market in advance that they will be doing their shopping that day.

Do you see how important it is now to keep the rules simple and stick to them?

The whole of civilisation would collapse, if we changed all the rules so that it appealed to what different groups of people liked. The rules need to be simple and the same for everybody.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

What's happening with AoS now is what happened with all the previous versions of 40k and WHFB. They got more and more complex and became less and less fun. The problem is, the fanbois, constantly beg and demand new rules. They have the loudest voice.

GW then add's more complexity to appease them. And then everybody who would have enjoyed the game, get board of it and move onto other things.

It's easier to get started building your own circuit boards, then it is to play AoS. Electronics's follows simple principles, the complexity only comes from sticking lots of simple things together.

AoS introduces new principles randomly every month, that contradict old principles.

It's like, imagine you jump in your car to drive to the super market. You goal is to buy some food. Well half way into your journey, the driving rules all change. Now a red light means stop, but only if you are driving a red car whilst wearing a blue bonnet.

Then you get to the super market, but your not allowed to enter, because the new rules are, that customers will only be admitted through the fire escape if they have already notified the super market in advance that they will be doing their shopping that day.

Do you see how important it is now to keep the rules simple and stick to them?

The whole of civilisation would collapse, if we changed all the rules so that it appealed to what different groups of people liked. The rules need to be simple and the same for everybody.

i don't know why your replying to me if your going to ignore what i say.
you are also very bad at metaphors and according to your own statements think very little of civilization so it's odd that your clutching your pearls now

 

[samheim]

Samheim is a troll who shouldn't be taken seriously - in one of his first ever posts on this forum he complained about how the game was going to be dumbed down to oblivion because girls were getting involved, now he's saying it's too complex? No idea what this guy's about.

That's false. I said the lore would be changed and dumb'd down. I never mentioned the rules. Don't attack me with falsely created strawman.

That's the way it always goes. Someone points out something really simple and well understood. Simple rules make good games. Its 101 of game design.

Fan boi's get hurt and instead of arguing the points of why their system is better, resort to personal attacks , strawmen and calling someone a troll (witch?).

Ok if you want to believe square wheels are better then round ones, then I can't do anything for you. I will be unable to enlighten you. I am sorry for your beliefs.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

That's the way it always goes. Someone points out something really simple and well understood. Simple rules make good games. Its 101 of game design.

magic the gathering dnd or any ttrpg realy crusader kings stelaris dwarf fortres i could go on . simple rules sometimes make good games some times complicated rules make good games it's a case by case basis.

Fan boi's get hurt and instead of arguing the points of why their system is better, resort to personal attacks , strawmen and calling someone a troll (witch?).

i have done nothing but make arguments and i have yet to attack you personally.

Ok if you want to believe square wheels are better then round ones, then I can't do anything for you. I will be unable to enlighten you. I am sorry for your beliefs.

you have yet to demonstrate this maby if you provided samples instead of just making clames i would now think as you do but all you have done is say war cry is better becous you think it is.

 

[Aginor]

Guys, please.
Y'all can discuss what was said, but I am sure we can do so in a civilized tone.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Guys, please.
Y'all can discuss what was said, but I am sure we can do so in a civilized tone.

agreed sorry

 

[samheim]

magic the gathering dnd or any ttrpg realy crusader kings stelaris dwarf fortres i could go on . simple rules sometimes make good games some times complicated rules make good games it's a case by case basis.

That post wasn't directed at you. You didn't resort to underhand tactics, for which I salute you.

Fair point. I don't know much about Magic the gathering. I have played DnD.

You can't really compare DnD to Warhammer. Warhammer requires you make a large time and money investment in building your army first.

But it's also a completely different game. You don't have a dungeon master to keep track of the rules.

The main problems with AoS is that the rules are in a constant state of incompleteness anyway. As new tomes come out introducing new mechanics, meaning that older tomes become obsolete and noncompetitive.

One would think that in a game of military strategy based on points matched armies, balance would only make the game more fun. But with the constantly shifting rules, balance is impossible.

My solution would be, GW should release a different set of rules for people who want to play a more streamlined version of the game. In the same way they made Apocalypse for 40k, to handle big battles.

They should make a simplified version for people who want to be good at the game, and not good at remembering rules.

This makes sense anyway, because owning and painting all these miniatures is such a big investment in time, its trivial to have multiple different versions of the rules.

 

[Aginor]

You can't really compare DnD to Warhammer. Warhammer requires you make a large time and money investment in building your army first.

True.

But it's also a completely different game. You don't have a dungeon master to keep track of the rules.

Also true.

As new tomes come out introducing new mechanics, meaning that older tomes become obsolete and noncompetitive.

That's the same in D&D. At least during the time when I played, new books with new rules (and power creep) were very real in D&D.

My solution would be, GW should release a different set of rules for people who want to play a more streamlined version of the game. In the same way they made Apocalypse for 40k, to handle big battles.

They did! The GHB 2019 has such rules.


As for learning rules: a more complex game is harder to master, which appeals to many people. And AoS is still a LOT less complex than WHFB. I don't see many problems there yet. However I agree that it does expand more and more and GW should try and keep the rules more together.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

That post wasn't directed at you. You didn't resort to underhand tactics, for which I salute you.

Fair point. I don't know much about Magic the gathering. I have played DnD.

You can't really compare DnD to Warhammer. Warhammer requires you make a large time and money investment in building your army first.

pathfinder then the books alone cost 1180$ and thats without campaign modals

But it's also a completely different game. You don't have a dungeon master to keep track of the rules.

true you have a table juge its also a lot more to keep track of if you army is your character then it's about the same as running a wizard for complexity that doesn't acount for every thing else in the game and thats what the dm keeps track of. you don't need to know more then your own army just ask questions of your oponent or take the 12 seconds to look it up.

One would think that in a game of military strategy based on points matched armies, balance would only make the game more fun. But with the constantly shifting rules, balance is impossible.

i mean it's not like real war didn't have constant advance ment or that adapting to a changing story/rules isn't half the fun. also balance is posable for most of the game ther are always outliers but 20 out of 26 armies are in the fat midle at the moment

My solution would be, GW should release a different set of rules for people who want to play a more streamlined version of the game. In the same way they made Apocalypse for 40k, to handle big battles.

They should make a simplified version for people who want to be good at the game, and not good at remembering rules.

they did it's called war cry you seem to like it

This makes sense anyway, because owning and painting all these miniatures is such a big investment in time, its trivial to have multiple different versions of the rules.

there is only 1 set of rules it just updats 1 out of 26 armies every month or so and the mane rules once a year

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

In terms of complexity, maybe we have a case where there is no such thing as the right level of complexity, but rather the right level of complexity for you specifically. Everyone can simply choose to play the game with the level of complexity that they personally enjoy. For me that is WFB, for others it is different.

 

[samheim]

In terms of complexity, maybe we have a case where there is no such thing as the right level of complexity, but rather the right level of complexity for you specifically. Everyone can simply choose to play the game with the level of complexity that they personally enjoy. For me that is WFB, for others it is different.

This is true.

I think why AoS was so successful at the beginning was because its rules were simplified. 40k 8th edition was really popular and brought people back because of it being simplified.

At this point in time, I can totally agree that WHFB was less complicated then AoS is now.

The problem is, they made new simplified versions of their table top games, and then they reverted back to old habbits by throwing in endless battle tomes with superfluous rules.

To me a better system would be this. Once a year release a generals handbook, with all the stats for all the armies in it. People will say that's no good,
but the GHB already comes with the points. The reason is because the points need to be updated in once place. Makes sense.

It would make more sense to put all the stat lines and abilities in one place as well, so everyone's armies were up to date.

 

[samheim]

And also, I don't think battle tomes that combine rules and lore, are an efficient way of doing things.

After all, when I buy box of miniatures they don't bundle them with the paint. I mean why not combine the paint and the lore?

I know the battle tomes are nice to have. They look great and its nice to get your lore in with the rules.

But it would be far better for the game if they done updates to at least the whole grand alliance at the same time.

Then they wouldn't feel the need to stick in these game braking mechanics, to make the tomes seem more appealing.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

in other news bone reapers have six subfations including but not limited to exploding skeletons... that sounds awesome.

 

[Canas]

Fair warning, incoming wall of text

the rules change so often that any phisical media is going to be out dated very soon if you like the cards fine i just like my stuff not to be wrong.

O sure, it has its advantages. It just has very significant disadvantages as well... Also do they even update the warscrolls on there?

your right win rates are pointless thats why slaneshes 80% win(factoring out mirror matches) rate is fine and it's both perfectly balanced and fun to play against balance is not soly about fun its about how fair a game is(witch most people attribute as one of the mane things that make games fun but whatever lets ignore that.)

That's not what I said. I said that winrate is pointless as a measure of how well balanced & healthy a game actually is as it simplifies everything down to 1 number. Ignoring every single little thing that factors into how that number came around. Slaanesh is overpowered, but ultimatly that doesn't dictate it's winrates.

To give an extreme example, you could make a monstrous model like Gotrek but even worse. Now add in the rule that the first turn you have to flip a coin, tails you lose the game, heads you continue the game as normal. It'l probably have a "healthy" winrate. But I don't think anyone is going to claim the model isn't completly broken and unfun to play against.

in a perfect world it would be 50% like most board games

Most boardgames that are interesting actually don't have a 50% winrate. Most tend to favor 1 player, or be a guaranteed draw, assuming optimal play. Games with RNG can come to a more balanced winrate, but to get 50% you essentially need to thrown in so much RNG player actions barely matter anymore as you need to negate every single (dis)advantage players manage to create.

. more rules means that it's easier to screw up yes but the more you have to work with the finer the balance can be you yourself have complained about the lack of tuffnes in AoS. yes some rules are bad and yes GW is bad at making them equal out but my point wasn't to have all the rules it was that more is better then none. i like alliance abilities i like endless spells i like mount traits and conclaves. all of witch wold be gone if we got rid of battle tombs and just did cards which was what i was responding to.

O getting rid of all rules is equally bad. But praising complexity for complexities sake is no better.

we only have 2 ways of rerolling 1s constellations and the spell every one hates these are redundant due to the AB but he can't be every where and constilations is map wide and only hapens 1/3 of the time . blote is a thing but we haven't reached it yet we don't have an appendicitis of terms like old fantasy does and dispight the redundancy in our book we are ooooold and most of the new books dispight having more rules don't have this problem

Constelation, the spell, Astrolith bearer, Sunblood'scommand ability, Scar vet on cold one's command ability, Stegadon's alpha, terradon/ripper's swooping dive, Shadowstrike's the trap is sprung rule, Thunderquake's swift rule. And several realm artifacts and spells. And then I probably forgot some as well. These all give variants of re-roll hits/re-roll hits of 1. It is both our most common buff and more often than not the only buff that unit can really get. Adding in that new spell to this already massive list was all sorts of pointless.

So by adding six cities to choose from, they made it six times more complicated.

I can imagine trying to play a game and explain that my steam tanks can fly because they are from a certain city. Imagine how frustrating and dumb that would sound if you had that rule sprung on you middle of the game.

This is indeed one of the biggest issues right now. AoS is an utterly massive game, and by adding in subfactions that vary this wildly in what they do it just gets more and more complicated to keep track of everything. A similar thing can be said for the extend to which they break core rules (e.g. our random teleporting) both of those are things you need to be super carefull with or it'l spiral out of control.

and the new Rumour engine:

Looks something Cities of Sigmar (snipers) to me.

Gr, Imrahil

Nah, it looks like a admech skitarii gun.

 

[ILKAIN]

No it would be more fun. Because more people would be interested in it and want to play the game. I say that it's you who is selfish, because you want to lock new people out by sticking a 2000 page learning curve in their path.

I am saying, any game that needs 2000 pages worth of rules, Faq's, battle tomes etc, needs to be taken away and burned on a bonfire. Even if people protest and say they like those games. They need them taken away for their own benefit. No man should like playing overly complex games, unless he is just trying to purposefully be awkward and difficult.

honestly I tried really hard to be nice and understanding, but all I'm hearing here are complaints and commentary that indicates a serious controlling personality disorder. "they need them taken away for their own benefit"... dude why should you be the one that gets to say what someone else gets to play and enjoy? that's why GW made different versions of its games. you like warcry, I don't. and that is perfectly ok. you don't see me saying warcry should be put in a bonfire because only my way to play is the right way to play.

you cry because we "strawman" you and insult instead of counter your points, but then you tell us the game we play is only good for toilet paper and that nerds have no business making games because they " get off" on being able to recall rules. first, no one has "strawman'd" you... that's the wrong logical fallacy for this situation. second, you are seriously projecting a lack of ability to engage in meaningful discussion while accusing others of the same. cognitive disassociation much?

might I suggest go fish if you aren't capable of, or don't enjoy, games with more than 1 page of rules.

 

[ILKAIN]

removed by OP

 

[Random Lizard]

In an attempt to better understand you, and maybe bridge this obvious gap between your existence and my understanding of it, would you mind answering a few questions? where are you from? how old are you? what do you do? I do not mean these questions in any malicious way at all, Im trying to better understand you. ill even answer first in a show of good faith. I am from the US. in my 30's and was a soldier. I have a naturally defiant nature because of all that, and I can rub people the wrong way when I try to communicate. but I recognize that. and take active measures to curtail it a bit when I am in the company of, or communicating with, persons that don't share those cultural traits with me. mostly because they would understand me, where as another would require clarification. you seem to not take those measures nor recognize that you are being offensive to anyone, yet seem to bristle on edge at any perceived offense direct towards you. why?

help me understand.

It might be none of my business but i'm pretty sure those discussions belong in private messages and not in a rumor thread.
The debate about AoS rules is an interesting one, perhaps a new thread could be dedicated to that discussion to avoid it taking over this one.

 

[samheim]

GW has always made this mistake before. And they are even in the process of doing it to warcry as well.

They get the original game right, then expansion time!

Maybe that is their market though. It is hard to say, because when they made the games simpler they had renewed interest.

I am going to look at the GHB2019 and find out about the more straight forward rules. Are they called pitched battles?