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AoS NEW *rumor*

Canas said:
Is everything going to be really expensive like the lumineth who also spam MW on their basic MSU? Something else?
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I don't really feel like thats a fair comparison considering how drastically different the damage output is. A single unit of sents or wardens can be doing double digit mortals with just one buff. That won't be the case with nurgle.

Games aren't really played where you have entire armies wrapped up by your models. There might be other ways to interact with these tokens thst really let them shine, but as it sits the damage is going to be rather pitiful.

IMO Munificent wanderers doing a mortal back to you when you roll a 6 to hit is probably more annoying to deal with or at least a super similar comparison.

Fingers crossed it lands in the "fun and good" space and not the "annoying and overpowered" one ;)
 
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Canas said:
If you look at this on something big like say an unclean one, it is indeed rather meh.
But stick it on some cheap MSU screen and it becomes significantly more usefull as cheap screens normally don't really do any significant damage. So even 1-2 MW per turn on a basic fodder unit is potentially quite usefull in certain scenarios. Especially as it also spreads passivly by just standing next to a nurgle model, making 2-3 disease points per turn (and thus 1-2 MW) fairly likely even with terrible attack stats.

Essentially, I'm just curious what's going to be the drawback. Are all nurlge units going to have terrible stats to compensate for having this baseline? Is everything going to be really expensive like the lumineth who also spam MW on their basic MSU? Something else?
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Its nowhere near LRL in terms of damage and power. The difference between dealing some chip damage to units in melee vs putting 10-20 MWs into a target from 30" range that ignores LOS is astronomical. There is just so many limitations with this mechanic and adding a tiny bit of damage to "basic fodder units" isn't very strong.

Its capped on 7, so it has 0 burst potential. This also means its susceptible to negative jank but not positive jank: low rolling will end up with 0 stacks from weapons, high rolling still only nets you 7 stacks even if you roll a hundred 6s. It deals damage in the BS phase which means enemies will retaliate with more models. Chip damage is mediocre in 3.0 since it introduced a lot more healing options and rally. Its mostly 3"/melee range so its primarily going to hit screens and anvils, where it will have little impact. Compare it to Kruleboyz that has everything dealing MWs on 6s.
 
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erians said:
Its nowhere near LRL in terms of damage and power. The difference between dealing some chip damage to units in melee vs putting 10-20 MWs into a target from 30" range that ignores LOS is astronomical. There is just so many limitations with this mechanic and adding a tiny bit of damage to "basic fodder units" isn't very strong.

Its capped on 7, so it has 0 burst potential. This also means its susceptible to negative jank but not positive jank. Low rolling will end up with 0 stacks from weapons, high rolling still only nets you 7 stacks even if you roll a hundred 6s. It deals damage in the BS phase which means enemies will retaliate with more models. Chip damage is mediocre in 3.0 since the introduced a lot more healing options and rally. Its mostly 3"/melee range so its primarily going to hit screens and anvils, where it will have little impact. Compare it to Kruleboyz that has everything dealing MWs on 6s.
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"Hey dude where did ya oldblood go it had like 7 hp left?"
"Nurglings maxed out on disease damage and finished him off due to it."
"Ouch dude that sucks. Anyway my great unclean one is gonna go next."
 
I think there's a big difference between this Nurgle tactic of getting chip damage on everything and armies like Lumineth and Kruleboyz who trigger huge amounts of mortal wounds every time they attack.

We'll have to wait and see how the rest of the rules turn out. I'm still guessing that GW leans more into the tankiness aspect of the army and they won't do a ton of damage from base stats and rend. So far each new rulebook has had a way to get a lot of extra damage out. Kruleboyz have mortal wounds on 5s or 6s. Lumineth have mortal wounds on 5s or 6s, Stormcast have extremely high base damage and lots of rend. I'm going to guess that Nurgle will get betters saves, even more ways to heal and regenerate, but lack high base damage and rend. They'll probably have special character abilities, command abilities, spells, etc., that raise or even max out the disease points on enemies, or make the wounds proc on 3s instead of 4s, stuff like that.
 
Dread Saurian said:
"Hey dude where did ya oldblood go it had like 7 hp left?"
"Nurglings maxed out on disease damage and finished him off due to it."
"Ouch dude that sucks. Anyway my great unclean one is gonna go next."
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Im not sure what point you're trying to make. There is a 0.78% chance that you roll x7 4+ in a row, and that's not even counting high rolling the 6s on the nurglings. Anything is busted if you assume they do their full potential damage.
 
Dread Saurian said:
"Hey dude where did ya oldblood go it had like 7 hp left?"
"Nurglings maxed out on disease damage and finished him off due to it."
"Ouch dude that sucks. Anyway my great unclean one is gonna go next."
Click to expand...

You say this as though an Oldblood dying to chaff units is some sort of novel concept that hasn't been possible until now.
 
erians said:
Im not sure what point you're trying to make. There is a 0.78% chance that you roll x7 4+ in a row, and that's not even counting high rolling the 6s on the nurglings. Anything is busted if you assume they do their full potential damage.
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The point is that a single nurgling model shouldn't be capable of doing this to begin with in any situation ever. It should be a 0% chance period.

Also, a single nurgle model is capable of easily maintaining 3 disease points, which translates to 1.5 mortal wounds/turn, more or less permanently on a target by just standing next to its target. Which means that if you don't kill that model, or run the hell away from it, you'l be suffering roughly two mortal wounds every single battleshock. Which isn't the biggest damage output in the game, and sure the tournament scene massivly favours burst damage so it'l probably be "balanced" there, but again this is something a single fodder model, not even a whole unit, a single model, like nurglings, should never be capable off. And since it's an ability on every single model it forces you to kill or avoid every single nurgle model, no matter how irrelevant that model should really be, or suffer constant damage.

It also leads to an odd situation where a single model is roughly as dangerous as a full MSU for certain units. A single plaguebearer is still going to be able maintain an average of 1.5 mortal wounds just by standing next to a target. 10 plaguebearers are only really going to be doing 0.5 mortal wounds, and maybe one or two regular damage extra compared to that. At least a unit of say lumineth wardens loses basicly all of its damage output if you kill 9 out of 10 models, and that last warden can safely be ignored. You can't really ignore that last plaguebearer.

And all that's ignoring the fact that the plaguebearer's ability is an AoE allowing it to potentially put out double digit mortal wounds if he manages to get in the right position (admittadly, highly unlikely, but the fact that it's even a technical possibility is rather silly)

Imho just looking at that scenario the rule should really have some caveat where nurgle units only spread desease if they have lets say at least 5 models or are a hero. Just add something like that preemptively to ensure that you don't get any weird degenerate scenarios involving decimated fodder units.
 
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Canas said:
The point is that a single nurgling model shouldn't be capable of doing this to begin with in any situation ever. It should be a 0% chance period.
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I personally don´t like to judge/complain about an ability, if you haven`t played a single game against it nor know the whole battle tome.

I simply don´t get where the negativity comes from?
 
Canas said:
The point is that a single nurgling model shouldn't be capable of doing this to begin with in any situation ever. It should be a 0% chance period.

Also, a single nurgle model is capable of easily maintaining 3 disease points, which translates to 1.5 mortal wounds/turn, more or less permanently on a target by just standing next to its target. Which means that if you don't kill that model, or run the hell away from it, you'l be suffering roughly two mortal wounds every single battleshock. Which isn't the biggest damage output in the game, and sure the tournament scene massivly favours burst damage so it'l probably be "balanced" there, but again this is something a single fodder model, not even a whole unit, a single model, like nurglings, should never be capable off. And since it's an ability on every single model it forces you to kill or avoid every single nurgle model, no matter how irrelevant that model should really be, or suffer constant damage.

It also leads to an odd situation where a single model is roughly as dangerous as a full MSU for certain units. A single plaguebearer is still going to be able maintain an average of 1.5 mortal wounds just by standing next to a target. 10 plaguebearers are only really going to be doing 0.5 mortal wounds, and maybe one or two regular damage extra compared to that. At least a unit of say lumineth wardens loses basicly all of its damage output if you kill 9 out of 10 models, and that last warden can safely be ignored. You can't really ignore that last plaguebearer.

And all that's ignoring the fact that the plaguebearer's ability is an AoE allowing it to potentially put out double digit mortal wounds if he manages to get in the right position (admittadly, highly unlikely, but the fact that it's even a technical possibility is rather silly)

Imho just looking at that scenario the rule should really have some caveat where nurgle units only spread desease if they have lets say at least 5 models or are a hero. Just add something like that preemptively to ensure that you don't get any weird degenerate scenarios involving decimated fodder units.
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Fair, i think we'll have to see what other spells/allegiance abilities/ etc play into it to really get an idea of how its potent it'll be on the battlefield. I dont think a lilttle bit of chip damage, even from nurglings, is necessarily super problematic but to each their own.

And in terms of a nurgling shouldn't be capable of doing it ever, at the very least i like that this ability does seem to play up the fact that even a nurgling is still a little ball of disease that can realistically effect anything or anyone.

Nothing is safe from disease.
 
Canas said:
The point is that a single nurgling model shouldn't be capable of doing this to begin with in any situation ever. It should be a 0% chance period.

Also, a single nurgle model is capable of easily maintaining 3 disease points, which translates to 1.5 mortal wounds/turn, more or less permanently on a target by just standing next to its target. Which means that if you don't kill that model, or run the hell away from it, you'l be suffering roughly two mortal wounds every single battleshock. Which isn't the biggest damage output in the game, and sure the tournament scene massivly favours burst damage so it'l probably be "balanced" there, but again this is something a single fodder model, not even a whole unit, a single model, like nurglings, should never be capable off. And since it's an ability on every single model it forces you to kill or avoid every single nurgle model, no matter how irrelevant that model should really be, or suffer constant damage.

It also leads to an odd situation where a single model is roughly as dangerous as a full MSU for certain units. A single plaguebearer is still going to be able maintain an average of 1.5 mortal wounds just by standing next to a target. 10 plaguebearers are only really going to be doing 0.5 mortal wounds, and maybe one or two regular damage extra compared to that. At least a unit of say lumineth wardens loses basicly all of its damage output if you kill 9 out of 10 models, and that last warden can safely be ignored. You can't really ignore that last plaguebearer.

And all that's ignoring the fact that the plaguebearer's ability is an AoE allowing it to potentially put out double digit mortal wounds if he manages to get in the right position (admittadly, highly unlikely, but the fact that it's even a technical possibility is rather silly)

Imho just looking at that scenario the rule should really have some caveat where nurgle units only spread desease if they have lets say at least 5 models or are a hero. Just add something like that preemptively to ensure that you don't get any weird degenerate scenarios involving decimated fodder units.
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Your math is confusing me. Why would a single plaguebearer be doing an avg of 1.5 MW whereas 10 would only average 0.5 MW?

For starters, a plaguebearer by no means would deal 1.5 MW a turn on average. They have one attack and would need to roll a six to even get a chance at a second MW. Then roll a 4+ for the maximum of 2 disease tokens it can inflict in a single round of combat. This maths out to ~0.6 MW a turn.

Ten plaguebearers would mean 9 more attacks, and so more chances at disease tokens. Why would that not be considered more dangerous?
 
Putzfrau said:
Fair, i think we'll have to see what other spells/allegiance abilities/ etc play into it to really get an idea of how its potent it'll be on the battlefield. I dont think a lilttle bit of chip damage, even from nurglings, is necessarily super problematic but to each their own.

And in terms of a nurgling shouldn't be capable of doing it ever, at the very least i like that this ability does seem to play up the fact that even a nurgling is still a little ball of disease that can realistically effect anything or anyone.

Nothing is safe from disease.
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O yeah, it's super fluffy. In that sense the rule is perfect and I'd love to see more of it. It just needs something to prevent the weird degenerate situations with decimated fodder units I mentioned from popping up. If they included a caveat like the baseline spread only worked on heroes and monster I'd be very happy with it.

PabloTho said:
Your math is confusing me. Why would a single plaguebearer be doing an avg of 1.5 MW whereas 10 would only average 0.5 MW?
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I meant 0.5 more. A single plaguebearer will average 1.5MW, 10 plaguebearers will do roughly 2 MW/turn. Or well really it is 2.333, but I was doing some quick and dirty rounding cuz I'm lazy :P.

Point being a unit of plaguebearers doesn't lose a whole lot of damage as it gets damaged thanks to the generous baseline of this mechanic.

PabloTho said:
For starters, a plaguebearer by no means would deal 1.5 MW a turn on average. They have one attack and would need to roll a six to even get a chance at a second MW. Then roll a 4+ for the maximum of 2 disease tokens it can inflict in a single round of combat. This maths out to ~0.6 MW a turn.

Ten plaguebearers would mean 9 more attacks, and so more chances at disease tokens. Why would that not be considered more dangerous?
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You don't just get disease points from attacks. Nurgle units also give 1 disease point for simply standing next to a unit at the end of a movement phase and at the end of the combat phase.

On top of that, it never drops below 1, so once the game has been underway for a while it's very easy to get 3 disease points by simply having a single nurgle model stand next to your target as most targets should be infected at that point.

This puts nurgle units at a baseline of 3 disease points, translating to the 1.5 MW I mentioned earlier. The extra attacks from a full MSU only add about 1.667 disease points on average, which will only add about 0.8 extra MW compared to that 1.5 baseline.
 
Canas said:
O yeah, it's super fluffy. In that sense the rule is perfect and I'd love to see more of it. It just needs something to prevent the weird degenerate situations with decimated fodder units I mentioned from popping up. If they included a caveat like the baseline spread only worked on heroes and monster I'd be very happy with it.


I meant 0.5 more. A single plaguebearer will average 1.5MW, 10 plaguebearers will do roughly 2 MW/turn. Or well really it is 2.333, but I was doing some quick and dirty rounding cuz I'm lazy :p.

Point being a unit of plaguebearers doesn't lose a whole lot of damage as it gets damaged thanks to the generous baseline of this mechanic.


You don't just get disease points from attacks. Nurgle units also give 1 disease point for simply standing next to a unit at the end of a movement phase and at the end of the combat phase.

On top of that, it never drops below 1, so once the game has been underway for a while it's very easy to get 3 disease points by simply having a single nurgle model stand next to your target as most targets should be infected at that point.

This puts nurgle units at a baseline of 3 disease points, translating to the 1.5 MW I mentioned earlier. The extra attacks from a full MSU only add about 1.667 disease points on average, which will only add about 0.8 extra MW compared to that 1.5 baseline.
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So just by standing next to em a unit of plaguebearers will just passively kill a 2 wound unit a turn?(small units of knights quaking in their boots)
 
Canas said:
O yeah, it's super fluffy. In that sense the rule is perfect and I'd love to see more of it. It just needs something to prevent the weird degenerate situations with decimated fodder units I mentioned from popping up. If they included a caveat like the baseline spread only worked on heroes and monster I'd be very happy with it.


I meant 0.5 more. A single plaguebearer will average 1.5MW, 10 plaguebearers will do roughly 2 MW/turn. Or well really it is 2.333, but I was doing some quick and dirty rounding cuz I'm lazy :p.

Point being a unit of plaguebearers doesn't lose a whole lot of damage as it gets damaged thanks to the generous baseline of this mechanic.


You don't just get disease points from attacks. Nurgle units also give 1 disease point for simply standing next to a unit at the end of a movement phase and at the end of the combat phase.

On top of that, it never drops below 1, so once the game has been underway for a while it's very easy to get 3 disease points by simply having a single nurgle model stand next to your target as most targets should be infected at that point.

This puts nurgle units at a baseline of 3 disease points, translating to the 1.5 MW I mentioned earlier. The extra attacks from a full MSU only add about 1.667 disease points on average, which will only add about 0.8 extra MW compared to that 1.5 baseline.
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Ah, I get it. I didn't realise it triggers at the end of the combat phase as well.
 
  1. Looks like they are coming out with a bunch of black library books. Including a book about seraphine the SCE fighting kragnos
  2. 900820415755198537.png
 
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