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8th Ed. Oops, I did it again: my updated version of the 8th edition Army Book

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Felian

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Hello everyone,

I am sorry if I only show up for submitting my new versions of the 8th edition Lizardmen army book.

I think I improved a lot the work that I started in 2020.
I did a lot of rebalancing, added more new units and special character, fixed existing troops and more.

I would really love to get your honest feedback on this 30-page document. Especially, what you like the most, what you don't like, what you don't agree with and what you would change.

Thanks in advance
 

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Format-wise some pretty obvious errors, ie the last line of text from a section bumped onto the next plage, table of stats for Skink Champion cut over two pages... Perhaps also a good idea to simply roll all the "no changes" units into a list at the start of the document instead of padding out the rest.

As far as units go, I think the following seem just a bit too out-there/bizarre/redundant, feels like trying to give Lizards everything-and-the-kitchen-sink
Saurus Ravagers (Just give TG or Saurus a GW option?)
Saurus Assaulters (Turning our lizardmen into lizardbeasts? Just feels a bit eh, would be okay as a unique one-off special unit sort of deal.)
Anacondas (Just why? Special rule feels a bit silly, even some giant snakes shouldn't be somehow catching and destroying a 40 strong block of infantry by default. Destruction by pursuit always felt more like scattering the enemy than literally murdering every single model)
Skink Culchan Riders (Why not blend into Skink Riders as a single unit with two mount choices or something? Terror birds are cool af though, I feel cold one rules are interchangeable with the models as it is since ratites are basically dinosaurs anyway)

What I did like
Skin Archers, sure why not give the old models official rules, though short bows work fine as javelins too IMO
Titanodon, sure why not have a cool af ginormous dinosaur
Everything else I guess...

Why not take some more inspiration from the Total War games too and give Kroxigors an option for those giant magical hand mace thingies (there's plenty of interesting/good new ideas from that game)

From someone who's not played 8th for years, so hasn't actually scrutinised the rules and stats to the Nth degree.
 
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thanks for your feedback.

To give you some info about why is why and what is what:

format-wise, honestly, I did not bother making it cleaner; honestly, I could have, but I couldn't be asked. Apologies if this results in it being harder to read.
I decided to leave the units with 'no change' in, as the document follows the same structure of the army book and to avoid people having to double-check
if they skipped a unit or so.

regarding the units:
I added more units with more specialised roles, pretty much in line with all the other armies. Empire, Orcs, skaven, dark elves: name an army and they have a troop type per weapon, basically.
Lizardmen is possibly the army with the least options and troop types; both Assaulters and Ravagers have different basic stats from the basic saurus and, this is why I made new units for them.
Regarding specifically the Ravagers, as mentioned above, they have slightly different stats if compared to warriors.
Assaulters, like above, are slightly different. They can be strong for sure, but their initiative of 2 will probably make them attack after the enemies and their lack of shield means a lower armour save. The only part that I was unsure about is if they should be skirmishers or not; I imagined them like some kind of jungle guerrilla unit, that strikes fast and hard. Of course, is entirely possible that I created something either OP or too cheap without realising.
Anacondas: this is again for giving some more troop options; they are inspired by the skaven giant rats. Do you think that the 'constrict' ability is OP?
Culchan and horned ones: I thought that creating a single profile with different roles (melee vs ranged attacks), different champions and optionable different equipment was too complicated; two separate units with their own different stats seemed easier to both design and understand for the user. Also, I made hoerned ones weaker but faster than cold ones and culchan are weaker but after than horned ones. Basically, if you catch the culchan riders, they are super dead. Horned Ones, instead can put on some fight.

Once more, thanks for your feedback. I would be happy to keep on discussing them

I thought about Total War, but I was not really sure about what to get out of it. For example, I made the Ancient Salamander just a power-up of the regular one.
The stronger kroxigor would sit somewhere in-between troop kroxigor and hero kroxigor, I suppose, but with which role and stats? If they are stronger than basic kroxigors stat-wise, would this mean that I need to boost the character kroxigors too? Wouldn't they become OP then? I agree that the "magic onesl" are cool, but, yeah they are tricky to classify. I could make them an optional weapon choice for basic Kroxigors (e.g. 2 hand weapons that do magical damage), for example; this would make sense.
 
Interesting set of errata. Personally I think it changes too much, so that it in effect becomes a second army book in its own right, but some of the new units are good (in particular the Rhinosaur Cavalry, I like how you've included the Mantic models now) and some of the amendments you've made based upon prior editions are spot on (bow Skinks, Sacred Spawnings, Kroxigor leaders including Nakai, Coatl). Detailed constructive feedback can be seen below:
  • Personally I would not have the Dread Saurian in the standard Lizardman army list, because they are so huge and powerful and would just incite players of other armies to introduce even bigger units to their armies' books in a 'sod you, mine's bigger' contest, which is already happening in 40K and AoS. It'd be fun to include in a Storm of Magic game using the Monstrous Arcanum book, where everyone's expected to field some of the biggest most overpowered stuff they can get their hands on in the manner of Apocalypse, but not for standard Fantasy games, please, in particular given the Titanodon already fills the role of Arachnarok-size monster.
  • I agree with @PlasmaDavid about the Anacondas being too strong, I would say something like 'whenever an enemy unit fighting a unit of Lustrian Anacondas loses and flees the combat, the unit suffers D3 Strength 4 hits for every Anaconda in the front rank of the unit, with no armour saves allowed, before flight and pursuit moves are made' would suffice.
  • Again as @PlasmaDavid says, Ravagers would make more sense simply being a Great Weapon option for Temple Guard, in particular given the model in the photo you've chosen to represent them clearly resembles a Temple Guard. I certainly understand what you mean about some armies getting different units that are pretty much exactly the same except for different weapons, but others don't suffer from that - Dwarfs, Greenskins (I'd say you were incorrect about Greenskins suffering from the syndrome given Orcs can be given different weapon options, their Core unit bloat comes from just having all manner of different types of Orcs and Goblins to choose from), Chaos Warriors, Skaven, Bretonnia and the Undead factions definitely don't suffer from that as each Core unit represents a different aspect of their society and can take different weapon options.
  • Assaulters seem a fun idea, but I would beg the question of why Saurus would choose to fight with just their claws (or clawed gauntlets as per the representative model) when they have easy access to clubs to bash the enemy's face in or spears to skewer their prey? And why do they fight as Skirmishers? What's the background behind them?
  • I don't think there should be a Chameleon Skink Lord character, given they are not commanders, but killers. In the Skaven book Assassins are Heroes rather than Lords for this reason, and I'd say Chameleon Skink characters would fall into the same boat.
  • I take it Discipline is Leadership, wherever you refer to it?
  • Lustrian Short Bows should just behave as per normal Short Bows but with Poisoned Attacks, as per Lustrian Javelins.
  • Again I would have thought simply giving Skink Cohorts Lustrian Short Bows, rather than creating an entirely new unit for the job, would suffice.
  • In 8th all Swarms are Special units rather than Core, that just seems to be an applied rule across all the 8th books (Tomb Kings, Greenskins and Vampire Counts experience the same with Tomb Swarms, Snotlings and Bat Swarms respectively)
  • I don't agree with Temple Guard becoming Core if a Slann joins the unit, given that they're still his elite bodyguards, with elite being the operative word - if an elite unit is moved into the Core slot, it no longer becomes elite in the sense of the word. Yes they clash with Saurus Cavalry in the Special slot, but you've already sorted the problem by quite rightly bringing back the Army of Kroq-Gar special rule and applying it to all Saurus Cavalry units.
  • Given Horned One riders are already marketed as Fast Cavalry, they'd probably do the job a lot better than Culchan Riders, making the latter pretty much redundant.
  • The Arcanodon is by and large just a repeat of the Ancient Stegadon with Engine of the Gods in lore, that happens to cast a Stone Thrower attack in the game. Personally I'm not fond of it.
  • I'm not keen on amending existing units too much (I'm looking at the changes you've made to Terradons, Ripperdactyls, Razordons and Salamanders here), only the necessary changes to allow compatibility with OOP old models as discussed above, and the following improvement below.
  • One improvement you've missed out is that I personally don't like the rules for the Trogolodon's Primeval Roar ability, it doesn't make sense that somehow its roar would get Saurus to fight harder, and would make a lot more sense if it reduced enemies' Leadership by 1 or even 2 to make them more susceptible to Fear and Terror, most handy for armies with lots of dinosaurs. A rewriting of this rule would be excellent.
However, big hats off to you for all this work, any fan-made rules writing is always welcome here. It's reassuring to know I'm not the only one who doesn't stick to purely 'official' publications just for the sake of it when it no longer matters, and that I'm not the only one to want to do their best to balance the playing field for all armies in the game after GW did such a poor job at it.
 
Felian said:
format-wise, honestly, I did not bother making it cleaner; honestly, I could have, but I couldn't be asked. Apologies if this results in it being harder to read.
Click to expand...
I mean, you literally just had to use "Print Preview", look it over for 30 seconds and go "oh this sections last line has been pushed to the next page" then go and correct it. Not really hard work in comparison to all the other typing and formatting you've done :P

My one comment about the Kroxigors in Total War, seems like a pretty straight forward upgrade/sidegrade for an existing unit, replacing their Great Weapons with magical attacks or something like that.

Total Warhammer 2 also introduces the Chameleon Stalkers (stiffened skirmish infantry from memory) and the crested skinks, which are somewhat halfway between Skinks and Saurus as melee infantry (I think some even get Great Weapons?) They might make for a fun glass cannon type unit, with only a 6+ Scaly Skin and no Shield.
 
thanks a lot for your very detailed feedback, Lord Agragax.
I will analyse all of the feedbacks, one by one, as they deserves:

Dread Saurian: I hesitated until the last moment in regards to adding it or not, for the same reasons you mention. Besides, the Titanodon already covered the 'very big guy' role. I added it mostly because of its existing stats and of TotalWar existence. But, yeah, honestly, it can totally go

Anacondas: very good point. I wanted something in between saurus and skink units; your suggestion for a reduction in their ability is absolutely spot on

Ravagers: the saurus I picked for the photo was the only one I found with a great weapon, lol. I confess that I did not think about the idea of offering a great weapon to Temple Guards. On the other hand, being a temple guard means that you also have all the "slann guard effects", which would prevent the unit from going around as freely as I imagined them.
This does not mean that it could be an unnecessary, bloated unit with a role already covered by the Kroxigors

Assaulters: like for the ravages, the picture shows the only 2 hand weapon saurus I was able to find. They would totally go around with 2 actual weapons, not just some kind of fake claws.
In regards to why they skirmish, I imagined them as some kind of guerrilla unit, going nimbly through the jungle and attacking unsuspecting invaders. Truth to be told, I was undecided if they should be a regular regimented unit, but I thought that this would have given a bit more options and variety of game; as skirmishers have different bonuses and limits, having a fast glass cannon saurus unit could be fun

Chameleon characters: you are absolutely right; that is a blatant error: chameleons characters are not leaders; as I did for kroxigors characters, they should not be able to command

Discipline and leadership: it is very possible that I used the wrong lexicon, yes. Apologies

lustrian short bows: as the javelins are described in the army special rules section, I felt the need to do the same for the bows. I don't think I gave them anything different than what you describe

Skink archers: I created a brand new unit because the basic cohort champion gets +1 Attack, instead of +1AB. Also, it felt easier to have a brand new unit than creating a very long/complicated option

swarm: I was not aware of this. It makes sense

temple guard: from my point of view, the slann presence does not make temple guard "less special", but makes them more likely to join a battle and a more "common" unit to bring to the field. This is my rationale behind it. Also, special characters are much lesslikely to be played than regular characters; myself, I have played them very seldom, as they tend to not be allowed in tournaments etc, so I would not consider Kroq-Gar's rule too much

Horned Ones and Culchan: my main doubt is if it makes sense to have a smaller melee cavalry (i.e. my Kink on Horned ones). The mounted archers are very different (and useful), the other cavalry is possibly redundant. Maybe merging the two and having archers on horned ones is the right in-between option

Arcanodon: the idea is to offer a different option fromStegadon and Batiladon and throw in another dinosaur. However, I understand your objection

amends: I understand your point, but I think that some of them, especially those on salamander and razordon, are worth doing

Primeval roar: good ide. It is clearly something that can be re-worked. Although, I have to admit that providing some boost to Predatory fighter is generally a nice effect; just, it does not fit well with the Troglodon


Thanks for your kind words. I had fun doing this and I think that Lizardmen has always been un army with too few options and too high point costs. My hope and intention is to try to solve these two issues by offering more variety and either making existing unit more effective or making them cheaper to acquire
 
PlasmaDavid said:
I mean, you literally just had to use "Print Preview", look it over for 30 seconds and go "oh this sections last line has been pushed to the next page" then go and correct it. Not really hard work in comparison to all the other typing and formatting you've done :p

My one comment about the Kroxigors in Total War, seems like a pretty straight forward upgrade/sidegrade for an existing unit, replacing their Great Weapons with magical attacks or something like that.

Total Warhammer 2 also introduces the Chameleon Stalkers (stiffened skirmish infantry from memory) and the crested skinks, which are somewhat halfway between Skinks and Saurus as melee infantry (I think some even get Great Weapons?) They might make for a fun glass cannon type unit, with only a 6+ Scaly Skin and no Shield.
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Fair point, about formatting :oops:

The sidegrade for Kroxigors is a cool idea:)

the crested skinks, in my version are pretty much the regular skins with the 'Red crests' upgrade. You canabsolutely argue that they are not offered the Grea weapon option, which could be a in interesting variation; however they still get +1 WS and Hatred, which make them a bit more threatening in melee.
If I was going to write down this unit (i.e. red crests with great weapons), what do you think, would Kroxigors be able to join it?
 
I'd just copy the TW games and have them as standard infantry. Though they'd sort of lack a niche, it's a bit awkward to be halfway between skinks and Saurus. Unless you consider them like a Greatswords glass cannon sort of unit.

As for the terror bird riders, why not remove fast cav from the horned one riders. Then you have both a light cav unit, and a fast ranged cav units.
 
Your idea for the horned one makes a lot of sense.
I was instead re-thinking the red-crested skinks with great weapons and, started having doubts. One of the skinks best features is having relatively high Initiative. Giving them a great weapon will make them attack last and basically just die. It would work only if they had the 'always attack first' rule; without it, they would be dead meat without any real utility, in my opinion
 
That's fair enough (can you tell it's been a while since I played 8th?) could they be Halberds instead? (the idea of buffing a skink strength is funny really) Or perhaps give them S4 and 2 attacks? I suppose if they're to have a unique role as a glass cannon type they need something to offset being almost unarmoured, perhaps trying to have them sort of like Plague Monks are slightly-better-but-not-really and different clanrats for Skaven. Having something to do with Sotek, a buff after they draw blood or something, is also a possibility.

Why not get some Lustrian terrain pieces in there for fun too?

Some kind of tower with a solar engine on top to attack besieging armies! Pylons that suspend a barrier between them blocking or weakening ranged shots. A cave or statue that spews forth snakes or spiders! A fountain of youth that can regenerate units but also reduce them to baby stats of 1 for a turn!
 
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Granting Strenght 4 and/or 2 attacks to skinks risks of making them almost identical to saurus units, I think.
Sceneries with effects are a cool idea, but I don't remember any other 8th edition army having them... but I could be wrong. Also, I don't find them very credible, if it is the Lizardmen army "going abroad" for a battle. I played with the idea of adding a Realmshaper engine (with a more appropriate name), but it looks really large and, as said above, I find it hard to justify its presence on a battlefield that is not in Lustria :/
 
PlasmaDavid said:
Why not get some Lustrian terrain pieces in there for fun too?

Some kind of tower with a solar engine on top to attack besieging armies! Pylons that suspend a barrier between them blocking or weakening ranged shots. A cave or statue that spews forth snakes or spiders! A fountain of youth that can regenerate units but also reduce them to baby stats of 1 for a turn!
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Felian said:
Granting Strenght 4 and/or 2 attacks to skinks risks of making them almost identical to saurus units, I think.
Sceneries with effects are a cool idea, but I don't remember any other 8th edition army having them... but I could be wrong. Also, I don't find them very credible, if it is the Lizardmen army "going abroad" for a battle. I played with the idea of adding a Realmshaper engine (with a more appropriate name), but it looks really large and, as said above, I find it hard to justify its presence on a battlefield that is not in Lustria :/
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I agree with @Felian, not just for the reasons he has described, but also because of the fact that faction-specific terrain pieces with significant game-affecting rules were not introduced in staple gameplay until after Fantasy was killed off, and I personally would like to keep it that way. By all means introduce scenery rules if fighting in a Lizardman Temple City, but not in a standard game of Fantasy except for the occasional faction for which it was given to (Beastmen, and Greenskins in their 7th book).
 
One thing that I always found a bit absurd is the fact that Lizardmen don't have the 'forest strider' special rule. They leave and fight in the jungle (which is by far harder to move through than any forest), but they do not have it.

Anyway, I was wondering if you have any feedback about the Relic Slann and the Cleric of Sotek; the Relic Slann, in my opinion, is a character type that was long due to the Lizardmen. It does make no sense that Lord Kroak is the only one available for choice.
Of course, I would like your feedback also in regards to the special characters, if possible ;)
 
Ok, I think I finished the revision of the army book, also based on your comments and suggestions. I consider this a full 2.5 version, as there is a decent amount of change.

The most important update is the addition of Blessed Spawnings and Southlands armies.
However, I tweaked and rebalanced stuff all over the place.
I could not change my mind around having both horned one and culchan riders as fast cavalry :p

Once more, the text layout is still a bit messy, as this second version is another draft looking for a review from other players like you. I might have forgotten other changes or might have to edit something; I will improve the cosmetic side of this document once the content is fully confirmed ;)

Please, let me know your what you think, I really appreciate it
 

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I really like the update, especially some new units like the Priest of Sotek and Cuchlan Riders that have some really nice models out there but no official rules. It's amazing the amount of work you've put into this, and I think it's defintely the most comprehensive rules revision I've seen . Some thoughts on the rules in general:

- Jungle Swarms are still overcosted, this update is an ideal opportunity to fix that
- Southlands looks good overall but it might be nice to add in some more special rules or unit options. For example you seem to have a problem with Culchan Riders and Horned One Riders filling similar roles, maybe Southlands can't take Culchans but can take Horned Ones and vice versa
-Saurus Calvary might be a bit undercosted, as they become very spammable. Spending less than 250 points to get 10 Cold one riders seems a touch too powerful. I might make them 25 points a model, or maybe 26
- Coatl seem to be in a weird spot, as they can only cast one spell and seem to want to be a combat monster but have terrible combat statistics outside of their thunderstomp. Thunderstomp doesn't even make much sense for a Coatl anyway. I might make them a little more fighty and have a special arcane lighting attack in combat
-Adding clarification on Predatory Fighter rules could be a good move
-Making special kinds of poison that Chameleon Skink units could choose between might be interesting, maybe something similar to the Wood Elves' Shadowdancers dances?
 
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The Great White Lizard said:
I really like the update, especially some new units like the Priest of Sotek and Cuchlan Riders that have some really nice models out there but no official rules. It's amazing the amount of work you've put into this, and I think it's defintely the most comprehensive rules revision I've seen . Some thoughts on the rules in general:

- Jungle Swarms are still overcosted, this update is an ideal opportunity to fix that
- Southlands looks good overall but it might be nice to add in some more special rules or unit options. For example you seem to have a problem with Culchan Riders and Horned One Riders filling similar roles, maybe Southlands can't take Culchans but can take Horned Ones and vice versa
-Saurus Calvary might be a bit undercosted, as they become very spammable. Spending less than 250 points to get 10 Cold one riders seems a touch too powerful. I might make them 25 points a model, or maybe 26
- Coatl seem to be in a weird spot, as they can only cast one spell and seem to want to be a combat monster but have terrible combat statistics outside of their thunderstomp. Thunderstomp doesn't even make much sense for a Coatl anyway. I might make them a little more fighty and have a special arcane lighting attack in combat
-Adding clarification on Predatory Fighter rules could be a good move
-Making special kinds of poison that Chameleon Skink units could choose between might be interesting, maybe something similar to the Wood Elves' Shadowdancers dances?
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thanks for the feedback and your praise! It is truly appreciated

Could you please give me further details about the following?
- how many points should the jungle swarm cost, in your opinion?
- why do you think that horned ones and culchan cover similar roles? The former is for melee and aim to be a more agile version of the Suarus on cold ones, while the latter are for ranged attacks. Am I missing anything?
-saurus cavalry: I might have discounted it too much, however, consider that they come without spear (which is an expensive optional add-on)
In regards to the making differences between Lustria and Southlands and creating exclusive units for the latter, I thought about it, but decided against it: it would probably mean that this troop risks never being used and it would be a waste
- Coatl: I imagine it to be more of a support troop, flying around and casting (either damage spell stuff or buffs/debuffs). It is not intended for fighting. I don't think Lizardmen would need another "big dinosaur" stomping around, while an agile support unit could provide more help. However, I understand that casting only once per round can be a bit underwhelming. Also, as you say, it makes no sense that it can stomp, although the rulebook mentions that also tail-swipes etc as stomps...
What could be an option is offering an upgrade that allows for more casting per turn (e.g. twice a round?). Also, I was thinking about another upgrade allowing for using High Magic as well, besides the already listed lores.
- Could you please advise about which kind of clarification is needed for Predatory Fighter? What am I missing?
- could you please provide more details about what you imagine for chameleons?

One thing that I am always on the fence about adding to basically all lizardmen troops is 'Forest Strider'. As they live and fight in the jungle (which is by far more intricate than any forest) it would make totally sense. On the other side, I am worried about making Lizardmen too good
 
-I think jungle swarms at 25-30 points would be a reasonable discount, perhaps a touch lower.
-For the Culchan Riders and Horned Ones, I now see that this is less of a problem looking at the upgrades each unit can take, as it more firmly establishes each of their roles
-For Saurus Cavalry, I see what you mean about spears. I still think it's a touch undercosted, but I would have to do more playtesting to be sure.
-I like the idea of a Coatl as a support, perhaps it focuses more on buffing other wizards? I might give it a special bound spell and do something like give a small buff to nearby wizards in addition to its current capabilities. High magic could be interesting, as well as being able to cast more spells. I think that would be a worthwhile upgrade.
-For Predatory Fighter the clarification is if it works on supporting attacks, as the rules present a pretty glaring contradiction on this front.
-For Chameleons the idea would be that at the start of the shooting phase, they can choose one of three poisons. One might poison on a 5 or a 6, one might reduce the target's weapon skill, etc. It might make chameleons a bit op but perhaps it could be an upgrade. Just an idea.
 
thanks
- cool, can reduce swarms costs, no doubt, I put them at 27 points
- same, 27 points, for cavalry too
- I will try to think about some additional effect for the coatl; however, bear in mind that currently it has already access to 4 spells already (without counting the potential High Lore, which would bring to 6). My concern is that by giving it too many special abilities, its cost in point would raise too much.
-good idea clarifying that; predatory fighter is a cool ability and deserves more love
- ok, I will try to think about something. However, I already buffed the chameleons by making their 'chamelon' special ability stronger. Like for the coatl,I wonder if it is more beneficial to keep them "weaker but cheap" or "stronger but more expensive"
 
Ok,I think I have completed the 2.6 version, adding also the Red Hosts as army option and fixing some stuff here and there, especially by following @The Great White Lizard 's suggestions. I also added a few options for Chameleon skinks, but not as much as suggested, as I feared that further boots would make them OP. My intention is to fix the Lizardmen army and not to make it OP ;)

I would truly appreciate another round of reviews from @PlasmaDavid and @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl, as many of their suggestions were taken into account and were implemented :)

Honestly, I don't think there is much more improvement it can be done to the Lizardmen without going full OP. There were a ton of small fixes that were needed for senseless decisions (e.g. the troglodon's spit poison ability does not do poison damages).
I confess that I am quite proud of my work and I wish it had been done by GW in the first place

Once more, thanks for any feedback you will want to give me and feel free to ask what is the rationale behind any change

--------------------
EDIT: I changed the file to version 2.7, as a couple of fixes have come to my mind (i.e. spell selection for the Relic Priest and Battle Standard Bearer in the Red Host army list)
 

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