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Tutorial Orc and Goblin Tactica (Now with Rock Paper Scissors Chart!)

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Scalenex, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. Scalenex

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    The Orcs and Goblins list has a staggering variety of units to choose from. Just about every special rule and unit type shows up on the list somewhere except Scout and the BRB lores (they have one special character that has Lore of Death and that's it).

    Most units have Animosity (characters are not subject to Animosity though most units with a character still suffer through it). A unit with Animosity has to roll for it at the start of every turn unless it’s fighting in close combat. If they fail the Animosity Roll, on a one in six chance they attack they inflict hits on the nearest O&G unit subject to animosity (who inflicts similar hits back) or they turn on themselves if there is no friendly Animosity subject in range. On a six they charge the nearest eligible enemy unit, or move straight forward if there no eligible units in range. Otherwise they grumble amongst themselves (and basically lose a turn). As a foe of orcs, the damage is nice, but the real bonus is when one of your opponent’s main units has to stay behind while the rest of the army goes forward.

    Some units have other things that make them do things they aren’t supposed to instead of or in addition to Animosity such as Stupidity, Frenzy, random movement, and rolls on misfire charts. This makes O&G somewhat unreliable and it also drives down the points cost of their units. When you play them, deploy your forces as if the enemy greenskins will stay disciplined all game. If you are relying on your foes to have discipline issues, it won’t happen. If you aren’t expecting discipline issues, it’s more likely to happen and you can treat it like a freebie.

    Basic Orcs

    Orcs have a baseline of M4, WS3, BS3, S3, T4, I2, Ld 7. All Orcs have a special rule called Choppas which means they get +1S for the first round of any close combat, thus if you can make it through the first round, subsequent rounds will likely tilt in your favor (assuming they don’t bring in additional units).

    All orcs are immune to panic tests caused by goblin or snotling units fleeing or being destroyed, so while you can get nice panics targeting goblins, it usually won’t spread to the whole army if orcs and goblins are deployed in an alternating fashion.

    An Orc Warboss can declare a WAAAGH! when charging once per game which gives all engaged orc units (except chariot riders and Arrer Boyz) +1 CR that round.

    One and only one unit of orc infantry or boar riders per army can be upgraded to Big Uns which give them +1 WS and +1S. Big Un infantry can take magic standards too.

    Saurus and Orcs have wider bases than most things, that means when they fight they can utilize greater frontages against each other than when fighting smaller foes. A Saurus or Orc Horde versus 20 mm base enemies has a lot of wasted frontage. Against each other hordes become more practical than usual. That’s worth keeping in mind for both LM and Orc players.

    Orc Boyz, Core: Vanilla orcs. They have light armor and hand weapons. They can take shields and either spears or a second hand weapon as an option.

    Savage Orcs, Core: They do not have light armor but they have a 6+ Ward save which is better most of the time. More importantly they frenzy which means they get more attacks and can theoretically be led astray with a redirecting unit (or be forced by bad luck to make a long-shot charge early in the game). They can take shields but few players choose to do so (no parry saves for frenzied troops). They can also take bows, spears, or two hand weapons as an option. The most common option is two hand weapons to give all the front models three attacks. Either way they are going to have lots of nasty attacks, especially on the first turn where they hit on S4.

    Savage Orcs have a special upgrade that is especially dangerous to Lizardmen: Big Stabbas. Big Stabbas are giant spears (with clearly visible models), which inflict a D3 S5 impact hit on a specified enemy model. If the target is large target (as many things on our list are), they also inflict multiple (d3 wounds). We have a lot of multi-wound models this might effect, but if you can deny Savage Orcs a charge, you don’t have to worry about it.

    Orc Arrer Boyz, Core: Just orcs with light armor and bows. Vanilla missile troops aren’t that impressive in 8th Edition, especially with only BS3. They still have an orcs stat-line so they fight noticeably better in CC than most other armies’ archers do. They are a relatively uncommon choice for Core.

    Orc Boar Boyz, Special: Basically a vanilla orc on a boar, enjoying the attack provided by the boar, +2 AS, and M7. Boars also get +2 strength on the charge. They can take spears and/or shields. They can take magic standards.

    Savage Orc Boar Boyz, Special: Same as above but with frenzy. They also have the option of taking two hand weapons in addition spears and/or shields. If they choose to take two hand weapons, they take twice as many casualties from dangerous terrain tests (because they are steering the boars entirely with their legs). Because of this risk, it’s not uncommon for large units of Savage Orc Boar Boys to have the Ranger’s Standard to negate this weakness.

    Black Orcs, Special: They are the elite orcs. They have the base statline of Big ‘Uns with a +1 Ld on top of that. They have heavy armor instead of the vanilla orcs’ light armor. They can also choose between using hw + shield (if they choose to buy shields), 2 hw, or greatweapons each battle (but once they made a choice they are stuck with it for the duration of that particular combat) making them more flexible than lesser orcs as well as more deadly. They are Immune to Psychology and are not subject to Animosity. Even when the entire rest of the army is either routing or bickering, the Black Orcs will hold the line and do what the Orc players wants consistently. Naturally they can take magic standards.

    Orc Big Bosses and Warbosses: Big Boss is the hero choice, Warboss is the Lord choice. Both Warbosses and Big Bosses come in regular Orc, Savage Orc, and Black Orc varieties. Big Bosses can serve as BSBs. Warbosses can use the Waagh! ability once per game (each, if you have two Warbosses you can have two Waaghs). All the character options can ride on chariots or boars. The Warbosses may also ride Wyverns which are basically a dragons with Poisoned Attacks instead of a Breath Weapon. All orc characters have the basic equipment options and special abilities as their non-character equivalents. Savage Orcs characters are NOT prohibited from buying magic armor though they cannot buy mundane armor. Black Orc characters can mitigate Animosity in a unit they joined, but they inflict auto-hits on their own units on a failed Animosity check (representing them brutally restoring order on their unit through violence).

    Orc Shamans and Savage Orc Shamans: Standard unarmored wizards though a little tougher than a human wizard. Shamans are L1 or L2 and may ride boars. Great Shamans are L3 or L4 and may ride Boars or Wyverns. Orc Shamans have their own lore, called the Big Waagh! They never take BRB lores. Their spells tend to be short range which favors the Shaman getting into the thick of things rather than hanging back, making it thematically appropriate for orcs. Savage Orc Shamans have Frenzy and 6+ Ward saves. Savage Orcs can take a special magic item that boosts the Ward Save of themselves and any Savage Orc unit they are joined with from 6+ to 5+.

    Big Waaagh! Lore:
    Lore Attribute: Strength bonuses from buffs or Strength based damage on direct damage spells go up an additional +1 if more friendly units are in combat than are fleeing.

    Gaze of Mork: Signature Spell, direct damage spell that inflicts S4 hits in a straight line (4d6 or 8d6 inches).

    Brain Bursta: Direct damage spell that targets a single model and hits at S5 at 18 or 36 inch range.

    Fist of Gork: The Shaman gains +3 Attacks, +3 Strength, and a 6+ ward save (does not stack with existing ward saves).

    Hand of Gork: Moves a single friendly unengaged unit 3d6 inches into a new legal position (cannot bring a unit into close combat). It has an extended version to move a unit 5d6 inches. Not only this useful for changing the set up of the battlefield by moving large units, it can also favorably reposition Night Goblin Fanatics.

    ‘Eadbutt: Direct damage with 4d6 or 8d6 inch range that only targets wizards, inflicting d3 wounds at S4. A major threat to skink chiefs, particularly with an EOTG since the spell ignores armor saves. This spell is a moderate threat to Slann that are already wounded.

    ‘Here We Go: Orc units and characters of all kinds within 2d6 inches of the caster reroll failed to hit rolls till the start of the casters next magic phase. This does NOT help non-orcs.

    Foot of Gork: A foot template with a d6 inch scatter inflicts targets hit with S6 d3 wound hits. Then the player rolls a d6. On a 4-6 they can apply the foot again (and CAN target the original target again if they so desire). On a roll of 1 the O&G player’s opponent gets to decide where the foot lands. It wouldn’t be Orc magic if there wasn’t a chance for it to go horribly awry.

    Basic Goblins

    Most goblins have M4, WS2, BS 3, T3, W1, I2, A1, Ld 6. They tend to be cheap. They may have similar stat lines with skinks but they cost a lot less than skinks so don’t get in a Skink/Goblin attrition fest if you don’t have to. Goblins low leadership makes them prone to panicking (Salamanders are spectacular for this), so it’s common for O&G generals to stick Goblin characters in their larger blocks or keep them near the general and BSB to shore up this weak point a little. Goblins Fear Elves (a pointless rule since given the high WS of elves, failing a Fear versus Elves does next to nothing). Night Goblins Hate Dwarves (not a pointless rule, but one that doesn’t affect LM players whose best friends aren’t Dwarf players).

    Goblins, Core: Vanilla goblins have light armor and may take shields and either bows or spears as an option (all options cost a half point, yay fractional points!). Goblins sometimes are used in chaff units of twenty, their minimum size. Goblins are sometimes deployed in deep ranked tarpits to stall your main blocks. Finally they can be deployed in horde formation to wear you down with an extremely high number of attacks. You can usually guess what your opponent is planning to do with them by their unit size and formation.

    When fielded in large numbers, goblins are vulnerable to upper level magic that inflict damage by the model such as Dwellers or Fiery Convocation and deep ranked units are of course vulnerable to being flanked. Goblins have low leadership, if you deny them Steadfast and give them a hard slap, they are prone to flee when not near the general. Salamanders are your friend, especially if you can cause a chain reaction panic by getting units to flee through other units panicking several goblin units from one good shoot.

    Small units should be run down by our heavy hitters or ignored outright. Since goblin chaff units are 20 models strong instead of 10 models strong it’s hard to panic them with magic or shooting alone.

    Vanilla goblin units can take up to three Nasty Skulkers which don’t have to be revealed until the player chooses. Once revealed they displace regular goblins. They are like regular goblins with a second attack and armor piercing. They get Always Strike First on the first turn. They are a threat to unit champions and in sufficient numbers are a threat to skink characters. At ten points each, they are more annoyance than threat vis a vis the rest of our army. Let me know if one you have an experience that says differently.

    Night Goblins, Core: They are like regular goblins except they have Ld5 instead of 6, do not get any light armor and do not have to pay for shields, spears, or bows (and thus are slightly cheaper). Between the lower cost of Night Goblins and the fact that they have not one but two highly useful special add-ons, they are more commonly seen than vanilla goblins. Night Goblins are otherwise used in the same ways as regular goblins and the same guidelines for fighting them apply, save that their lower leadership scores makes them even MORE prone to run away. Also, the upgrades are a substantially bigger threat than Nasty Skulkers.

    Netters are an upgrade that are not hidden, so you can see if they are there by looking for a Netter model or politely asking the O&G to tell you if there are Netters in the unit. At the start of each round of close combat, the Netters have to try to entangle someone. On a 2-6 an enemy unit gets -1 S for that round of combat. On a toll 1 they drop the net on themselves and the Night Goblins take the penalty instead.

    Night Goblin Fanatics are hidden in the unit and triggered the first time an enemy unit comes within 8 inches. They move randomly, can’t be charged and inflict d6 S5 armor piercing hits on units they bump into. If you come into contact with the Night Goblin instead of the other way around, the Fanatic dies but inflicts double hits first.

    Under optimal conditions, you can use Terradons or Chamo Skinks you can trigger a Fanatic to move towards the general direction of the O&G in lieu your own troops. While it’s fun to see Night Goblins hit their own side troops, they also self destruct when they come into contact with terrain (other than hills), roll a double, or bump into another Fanatic. If a Fanatic is loose on the field and doesn’t look like it’s about to crash into something that’s not your own troops, it’s probably worth your effort to shoot them down with skink missile fire or magic missiles. Since they go off when an enemy unit is in base to base contact I’m thinking you probably can’t safely drop rocks on them with a Terradon. If you are taking High magic, you can use Walk Between Worlds to safely trigger Night Goblin Fanatics though your opponent will probably try to launch them away from your ethereal unit so they don’t auto-die.

    The possibility of Fanatics should make you cautious when approaching Night Goblin blocks, but not too cautious. Not every Night Goblin block has them necessarily. A player in my local store that is very good at bluffing that he has Fanatics when he doesn’t in order to trick his foes into making unaggressive opening moves.

    Goblin Wolf Riders and Spider Riders, Core: Both spider riders and wolf riders are fast cavalry (wolf riders are the more popular of the two). They have light armor and can buy shields, spears and/or bows. Wolf Riders are slightly cheaper and faster. Spider Riders have several special abilities. The spiders have poisonous attacks, Forest Strider, Obstacle Strider, and they spiders can fight alongside the goblins when assaulting buildings. Both Fast Cavalry types are a serious threat to our many skirmishing units and can potentially threaten our block troops and monsters with supporting flank charges.

    If they are in small chaff units of five or so models, they are mainly a threat to your skirmishers. Try to destroy or panic them with shooting and magic. If they are in groups of 10 or more, they are probably intended to provide flanking charges to back up the infantry so be careful not to expose the flanks of your Saurus and Skroxigor. If you can force them to fight your front flank, they won’t last long.

    Goblin and Night Goblin Warbosses and Big Bosses: Warbosses are the Lord option, Big Bosses are the hero option. Night Goblins are slightly cheaper and have one less Ld than their vanilla counterparts. Big Bosses of either type can be BSBs. The vanilla goblin characters can rider Giant Spiders, Gigantic Spiders (a bigger stronger version of the basic spider), Wolves, or Wolf Chariots. Night Goblin characters can ride Great Cave Squigs. Any goblin character can take shields, light armor, two hand weapons, or great weapons. The Big Bosses can take bows. Skink chiefs slightly outclass goblin characters statwise, but goblin characters are slightly cheaper (even with the points reduction Skink Chiefs recently received). Their real threat that goblin characters pose is not their killing power but the fact that they can provide a critical boost to a goblin unit’s leadership. There is no rule that goblins and night goblins can’t mix, so many like to put regular goblin characters in night goblin blocks to give the an extra Ld over what a night goblin character would provide.

    Goblin and Night Goblin Shamans and Great Shamans: Shamans are level 1 or 2 heroes, great shamans are level 3 or 4 lords. Night Goblins are slightly cheaper and have one less Ld. They also have also have magic mushrooms that they eat when casting any spell. They add a bonus d6 to the casting roll (that cannot contribute to IF but they do have the net affect is that they make Goblin magic harder to dispel). If they roll a 1 on the bonus die the spell automatically fails and they have a 50% chance of taking an automatic wound. Goblin Shamans (but not Night Goblins) enjoy some special mount options. They can ride Giant Wolfs or Wolf Chariots. Great Shamans can ride Arachnarok spiders which can further take an upgrade to give the great shaman lore master.

    Little Waaagh!: Regardless of level and type, Goblins are limited to their unique Lore, the Little Waaagh! Most of the spells have decent range letting the goblin hang back and casting support spells like the coward he is. They also tend to have low casting difficulties compared to most BRB lores. It also synergizes well with a strategy based on clever maneuvering over brute force.

    Lore Attribute, Sneaky Stealin’: Whenever a spell is successfully cast, the goblin player rolls a d6; on a 5 or 6 they can steal a die from the opponents Dispel dice pool and convert it to a Power die giving you (a LM opponent) an added incentive to front load your dispel attempts early to avoid having your dice taken before you can even use them.

    Sneaky Stabbin’: Signature Spell, Augment with 12 inch range that bestows armor piercing on a friendly unit until the start of the caster’s next magic phase. If said friendly unit is engaging a foe in the flank or rear, they also get to reroll failed To-hit and To-wound rolls.

    Vindictive Glare: 24 inch magic missile that inflicts 2d6 S3 hits, or 3d6 S3 hits if augmented.

    Gift of the Spider-god: Augment that bestows poisoned attacks on a unit within 12 inches until the start of the caster’s next turn. If the unit already has poisoned attacks, it’s now poisonous on a 5 or 6. I would be quite happy if LM could do this, but the new book has enough goodies that I’ll get over not having this spell.

    Itchy Nuisance: Hex with a 24 inch range that reduces a target’s Movement rate and Initiative (minimum 1).

    Gork’ll Fix it: Hex forces enemy unit in 24 inches to reroll to hit, To Wound, and Armor Saves of 6 until the start of the caster’s next magic phase, much like Curse of the Midnight Wind only cheaper to cast and with no augmented spell option.

    Night Shroud: Augment gives the shaman’s unit soft cover until the start of the caster’s next magic phase. Normally a highly situational spell, but more useful against LM than most armies given the comparatively high number of shooters our army has. There is an augmented version to affect all friendly units within 12 inches of the shaman.

    Curse of da Bad Moon: An unusually fast moving template forces affected units to make a characteristic test or take a wound. The test is either Strength, Toughness, or Initiative and is randomly rolled for each round. The augmented version uses the larger template and lets the caster choose the characteristic test rather than rolling for it. Naturally the most dangerous tests are Initiative for Saurus and Toughness for Skinks. Regardless of what test is chosen, and which units are hit, the effects are unpleasant.

    War Machines and Chariots

    There are not a lot of generalizations to make here. This is where the diversity of the O&G really shines. None of the following are subject to Animosity.

    Goblin Wolf Chariot and Orc Boar Chariot, Special: Pretty unremarkable chariots. As one would reasonably expect the Orc chariots hit harder, have a higher armor save, more wounds and cost more points. The wolf chariot is slightly faster and can be fielded in singly or in groups of two or three. Orc chariots can buy an extra orc for extra attacks. Wolf chariots can buy an extra goblin and/or an extra wolf for extra attacks. Chariots of either type are a threat to our scattered skirmishing units and are a threat for the adding impact hits into multi-unit melees.

    Snotling Pump Wagons, Rare: An inexpensive random movement chariot that inflicts extra impact hits (though they are only at S4). They move 2d6 or 3d6 per round (player’s choice) They have a variety of potential eclectic upgrades, including an upgrade to make their base speed 3d6 and their augmented speed 4d6. In the spirit of O&G randomness, if they roll two ones it crashes and dies (thus the more dice the player uses the greater their chances of crashing). With T4, 3W, and 6+ AS, they are relatively easy to shoot down. If you can’t shoot them down, try to get the charge on them. Their Impact hits are nasty but their regular attacks are only S2 and WS2, so even Skink Skirmishers can beat them in close combat.

    Goblin Rock Lobbers, Special: Basically these are BRB rock lobbers. They have a goblin crew but can take an Orc Bully as an upgrade. Bullies let the whole unit be treated as an orc unit for purposes of not taking panic test for fleeing and destroyed goblin unit (handier than you think since a cluster of war machines is likely to have lots of things die near it). It also adds a wound and provides a tougher fighter in close combat. Most rock lobber’s I’ve seen seem to take bullies. That one extra wounds makes Lobbers a lot harder to kill with a single volley of poisoned shots. They don’t have engineers, flaming hits, panic inducing hits or anything exotic so you can just leave them alone and hope they deviate a lot (which sometimes happen), but I usually kill them when I’m able to.

    Goblin Spear Chukka, Special: These work like BRB bolt throwers except if they roll a 1 to hit, they roll on the stone thrower misfire chart. They have an option to take orc bullies, but that’s pretty rarely chosen. They are VERY cheap and they have a special rule that lets an opponent take twice as many Spear Chukkas as they would normally be allowed for special choices. An O&G opponent can potentially field a very large number of spear chukkas against you. Most of them will miss, and some will self-destruct, but numbers tell. The worst part is they are only worth 17.5 Skaven Slaves a piece, so it’ s barely worth your effort to kill them, even with Skinks.

    Doom Diver Catapult, Rare: The crown jewel of O&G technology. It fires like a Stone thrower but inflicts d6 S5 hits instead of a template so are dangerous to our smaller units like skirmishers and not just our blocks. The most noteworthy thing is that after the initial scatter roll, the player can roll a d6 and move the goblin in any direction that many inches making the Catapult unusually accurate for a war machine. To counter balance this, the misfire chart is extra nasty and Doom Divers can’t take Orc Bullies. The deadly accuracy makes these the great war machine threat in the O&G and should be the priority target for your Terradons and Chamo Skinks. It ignores armor saves so our Bastilodons and Cold One Cavalry are in serious danger by these.

    Miscellaneous Critters

    Arachnarok Spiders, Rare: Roughly as nasty as a Stegadon, arguably slightly better. It has no Impact hits but possessing a slew of special abilities and more rider attacks. Like the Stegadon it’s immune to psychology, Stubborn, has a 4+ Armor Save and causes Terror. It also has poisonous attacks, Obstacle Strider, Forest Strider, Swift Stride, and gets to use all its and its riders’ attacks when assaulting buildings just like the smaller spiders. It can be upgraded with a Flinger. A Flinger is a very low strength rock thrower that can move and fire (but not march and fire) and gives afflicted targets Always Strikes Last temporarily. All misfires are treated as simply losing that one shot. One and only one of the Spider’s attacks each round inflicts d6 wounds making it slightly risky to send our larger dinos at them (but not that much, one WS3 attack out of eight isn’t that big of a deal). They are also one of the few units on the O&G that doesn’t have to deal with Animosity, misfires, or any other randomness at all.

    A Carnosaur used to be our best anti-Arachnarok tool. Now that Kroxigor are cheaper and hit harder, they should be able to take these giant spiders just as well. A Stegadon works too if the Stegadon gets the charge and thus the Impact Hits (hopefully with sharpened horns). The Arachnarok is faster though which makes getting the charge difficult. What normally ends up happening is a long drawn out battle between a block of Saurus and an Arachnorok, the side that wins is usually the side that brings in a supporting flank charge first, otherwise the battle will likely drag on several rounds leaving the victorious unit severely wounded.

    Night Goblin Squig Herds, Special: A mix of Night Goblins and Cave Squigs (roughly 1:3 in favor of the Squigs). The Night Goblins still fight as poor as ever, but the Squigs have WS4 and S5. If the unit flees for any reason or all the Night Goblins are Slain the unit self destructs inflicting hits on every unit friend or foe within 2d6 inches. Unfortunately being Immune to Psychology means you can’t cause them to self destruct with a panic test. Also you have to fight whatever is base contact with you in CC so it’s hard to specifically pick off the Night Goblins. No armor save and only T3 so they are relatively vulnerable to shooting and magic but they do have Skirmish making them a little harder to shoot.

    Squig Hoppers: All the power of a squig herd without the risks of them self destructing. They have random movement (3d6) which means a whiffed movement roll will slow down their advance almost as well as a failed Animosity Test. If all three dice roll a six, they get Impact Hits (1). I do not see why they have that rule. The odds of rolling three sixes on three dice in one in a hundred and eighty-six. They are Immune to Psychology like their herder brethren. Like the Squig Herders, I recommend taking them down with ranged attacks if possible. Characters riding Cave Squigs (and units led by those characters can reroll) their random movement letting them cover ground faster on average and raises their odds of rolling three sixes to one in ninety-three!

    Mangler Squigs, Rare: Like the hoppers, they have 3d6 random movement. They don’t enter combat the regular way, if they come into contact with a unit (friend or foe) they inflict 2d6 S6 armor piercing hits. Once they pass through a unit thusly, they lose go “Crazy” and move in a random direction. If an enemy moves into contact with the Mangler instead of the other way around, the Mangler Squig auto-dies and the unit that kills them takes 3d6 S6 armor piercing hits (they are basically a bigger stronger Night Goblin Fanatic). At 65 points a model, we don’t have a lot of chaff units that we would want to deliberately feed to a Mangler (unless you have a unit badly wounded that’s probably going to die anyway). The best way to deal with these dangerous bouncing balls is to shoot them down with magic or skink shooting before they get to you. This should be an even bigger priority to shoot down than the other squig units because you literally cannot fight them in CC.

    Trolls, Special: Fear causing Monstrous Infantry with Regeneration. Slightly less potent than Kroxigors and moderately cheaper point wise. They have three attacks at Strength 5. They can forgo their normal attacks for a single vomit attack that hits at the same strength but ignores armor saves. Vomit is not very efficient at killing rank and file troops, but it's a great way to kill Saurus cowboys rendering their higher WS and their mighty armor saves worthless. Keep your Saurus characters away from trolls!

    Flaming attacks are nice of course as when fighting regenerating foes. Their true Achilles Heel of trolls is not fire, but their Stupidity special rule which is paired with only having Ld4. Experienced orc players will keep their trolls near the general and/or BSB. Some players even attach an orc character to a troll unit (usually on a boar so the orc doesn’t slow the trolls down). If you can help push circumstances to get a Troll unit isolated from a leading character, do so! Most of the time you don’t even have to kill confused trolls because they won’t reach your line in time to help the main battle.

    River Trolls and Mountain Trolls, Rare: They have all the powers and stats of vanilla trolls plus additional powers. Mountain Trolls have a 5+ armor save and Magic Resistance 2. River Trolls have River Strider, Marsh Strider, and give a -1 to hit penalty in close combat. River Trolls are the more dangerous of the two. With the comparatively low WS of our troops, the -1 penalty really hurts and River trolls can chase after our Aquatic units with greater ease than other greenskin units.

    Snotlings, Special: Our Swarms are so much better for the same price that I pity the lowly Snotlings. They have throwing weapons that auto-hit though they hit at a measly Strength of 2. Not nearly as good as spreading poison.

    Giants: These guys are hard hitting and tough. Their attack pattern is random. Typical close combats range from moderately bad (for the LM) of the giant to very bad (unless they fall over which is usually a boon to the LM). As a high toughness no armor save target, they are very vulnerable to poisonous shooting. If the army includes savage orc shaman, the player can buy a 6+ ward save tattoo for his giant(s) giving him a modicum of protection other armies’ giants do not receive, but it does not mean you shouldn’t still shoot them. Flinging Jungle Swarms at them is also a decent way to get some easy wounds on these guys.

    Special Characters in Brief

    There is basically a special character per type of regular character available. Each one has a unique magic weapon of some kind. Most of them have underwhelming saves.

    Gorbad Ironclaw: The greatest orc leader of all time. Basically he’s a Boar riding Warboss. He is one of the few units besides Slann that can serve as the general and the BSB at the same time. Unlike the Slann, he does both these effects at 18 inches instead of the usual 12. Even more impressive, an O&G player take as many Big Un upgrades on his orc units as he wants instead of one catapulting an army from horde-type to elite. He also adds his current wound total to nearby units with failed Animosity rolls (meaning they usually charge and never fight amongst themselves). He only has a 3+ armor save though and no Ward or Regeneration Save. That’s fairly vulnerable for a model this potent, so be sure to direct your close combat attacks on him if you can.

    Azhag the Slaughterer: An orc Warboss on a Wyvern. He enjoys a 5+ Ward Save (which doesn’t quite make up for his underwhelming armor save), magic Paired Weapons that let him re-roll failed To Hits, and he lets units within his Inspiring Presence re-rolled failed Animosity rolls. Most impressive of all, he has a magic helmet that makes him a level 3 Death Wizard. This is the only way the O&G can get a BRB lore.

    Wurzag Da Great Green Prophet: Orc great shaman with a bunch of unusual magic items that aren't too bad if you don't mind random situational things.

    Grom the Paunch of Misty Mountain: An unusually large goblin in an unusually large chariot. Has eclectic special abilities, primarily a fluffy anti-elf character. He also the only goblin character with the Waaagh! ability and his Waagh! applies to both goblins and orcs.

    Skarsnik, Warlord of the Eight Peaks: A stronger Night Goblin Warboss with a large pet Squig (I find it slightly ironic that the scourge of the Dwarfs is especially easy to pick off with a cannon). For LM, only two of his many abilities really matters. First, every one of his enemies' units has a one in six chance of being delayed by traps and forced to come on as reinforcements which can mess up your initial deployment a lot. Second, Night Goblins in his army can move and/or shoot after rallying allowing the O&G all sorts of Skink like redirecting fun.

    Snagla Grobspit/Gattilla Da Hunter: A souped goblin character on a spider/wolf respectively. They are required to deploy with a unit of spider/wolf riders and bestow special abilities on their respective units.

    Grimgor Ironhide: The greatest Black Orc in history. Unlike garden variety Black orc characters however, he can’t suppress Animosity as he is required to deploy with a unit of Black Orcs (and Black Orcs are already Animosity free). He does raise Black Orcs from Elite to just shy of Chuck Norris bestowing +1 WS and Hatred (Everybody!) on the unit. He has a 1+ AS/5+ Ward making him the only SC on the greenskin army list with decent saves.
    Warden and ASSASSIN_NR_1 like this.
  2. Scalenex

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Now Lets look at LM units through the lens of how they interact with Orcs and Goblins.


    Saurus: Saurus outclass orcs with their second attack, predatory fighter, and better armor save. If you can survive one round of combat against orcs, the Saurus gain a further edge in strength when the Choppas special rule fails to take effect. Orcs are noticeably cheaper so you need to beat them decisively and try to route them or their superior numbers will wear you down through attrition, or worse, allow them to stall you long enough bring a support unit to bear on your Saurus’ flank negating your advantage. Saurus are very good at a cutting up Goblins too, but Goblins are so cheap, you have to be wary of getting your Sauri trapped in a Goblin flavored tar pit.

    Skink Cohorts: Skroxigor are a good Core choice versus Orcs and Goblins with or without Sauri. The standard combo of a Kroxigor’s mighty hits with a squishy bunker of expendable skinks works quite well for fighting hordes since most of the attackers won’t be able to target your Kroxigor. They have good hitting power to take down enemy monsters, but you risk your Kroxigor being individually targeted. Don’t forget the higher movement rate. Because most O&G armies will outnumber you, you need to control the tempo of the battle and try to take the greenskins out piece and the extra speed will help you double team enemy units to take them out quickly.

    Since Goblins fight about the same and are cheaper to boot, you probably don’t want to use vanilla Skink blocks to do any serious fighting. They are the cheapest unit we have though. 10 models can be used as sacrificial units to absorb hits from Night Goblin Fanatics and Mangler Squigs or to redirect frenzying Savage Orcs. They can also shoot at things in the meantime while waiting for their cue to die for the greater good of your army.

    Skink Skirmishers: There’s plenty for skink skirmishers to do. They can serve as bait for grenade units like Fanatics and Mangler Squigs or circle around them and shoot them down. They can whittle down the many high toughness, low save units in the O&G army (especially giants). They can also shoot up smaller chaff units. Chamo Skinks can do these things too, but Skink Skirmishers are cheaper, which is a useful trait considering how many mobile O&G units there are that can catch and kill skirmishers (in other words you may want some cheap expendable skirmishers to spare).


    Jungle Swarms: Swarms are now cheap enough to be decent stalling units and a potential weapon to take out giants. Against goblins, it’s probably not worth it to use the special ability to bring poison into a large melee but poison will help a lot against orcs.

    Chameleon Skinks: Chameleon Skinks are good at hunting down war machines like with most armies. They are also good at shooting down Mangler Squigs, Goblin Fanatics, Giants and other potent lone models with low saves. Given the relatively low Ld of goblin units, they can march block too.

    There are two problems to account for. First, unless the army leans very heavily on their stronger orc units (or the overall point size of the game is fairly small), it’s not uncommon for an O&G to be so numerous as to fill up their whole deployment zone giving you few ideal places to drop scouts. The second problem is that most O&G have fast cavalry or chariots which can run down your skinks, or at least herd your Chameleons away from the war machines and other priority targets.

    Terradons: Terradons can go after war machines. They are strong enough to stand toe-to-toe with Goblin fast cavalry units. They can flush out Goblin Fanatics and then fly out of harm’s way, potentially sending the Fanatics towards the O&G if you are both lucky and clever. They can also drop rocks and throw javelins on small mobile chaff units and run all the sorts of interference available in the Terradon Tactica. They aren’t throwaway units at 30 points a piece, so don’t get cocky. Their fast cavalry equivalents in the O&G may not be able to beat Terradons in terms of raw power (no Stomps or shooting) but they are likely to have you beat in terms of numbers. Fireleech bolas won’t do much to a unit of trolls by themselves, but if you follow up the leeches with a barrage of blowpipe darts, the trolls will not be happy.

    Ripperdactyls: They can do all the same things Terradons can do but you don’t need a sledge hammer to tap in a nail. Rippers should probably be sent after tougher targets. I’d recommend using them to flank orc units and to hunt chariots.

    Temple Guard: Against some armies our elite infantry barely outclasses the enemy’s core infantry. It’s a nice change of pace that Temple Guard actually fight a little better than Black Orcs, at least once the Choppa special rule ceases after the first combat round. Even without Slann magic, our Temple Guard will hold their own against pretty much any one unit the O&G throw at them. Most O&G have strength of numbers, so try not to let them gang up on your Temple Guard with several units. A Banner of Eternal Flame is probably a good investment to make the Temple Guard better at killing trolls and cause Fear to would be flanking cavalry units. Because of the fact that Temple Guard outclass most orcs, this is a rare time when it is viable to run them without Slann

    Cold One Cavalry: Saurus Cavalry provide us speed and hitting power. A one-two punch with infantry and a supporting cavalry charge should break almost any O&G unit that is not Steadfast. The Fear causing is nice too, especially against low leadership Goblins. Just make sure if you are willing to spend the points that you make sure every single move you make with them counts.

    Kroxigor: A small sized unit is a good flanker. A larger unit can chop up trolls, giants, boar riders, and other heavies pretty easily. A Kroxigor is probably wasted tonnage against basic greenskin infantry though.

    Stegadons: Terror causing piles of muscle and horns are great for any occasion. They should great against blocks of enemy infantry and okay against their monstrous counterparts in the O&G army. Whatever role you use your big dinos for, you need to get the Impact Hits to maximize their usefulness or they probably won’t be worth the points.

    Bastilodons: They are threatened by greenskin artillery but so are all other big dinosaurs. Once in close combat, Bastilodons become very hard for O&G to kill. The Initiative buff will help Sauri strike at the same time as Orcs and your Swarms will have plenty to do if you choose to run with the Ark of Sotek instead.


    Salamanders: With the relatively low leadership of the greenskin army, Salamanders are good at panicking orcs and great at panicking goblins. If you can somehow deprive the targets from leadership boosting characters, even better.

    Razordons: The new improved Razordons will surely inflict much damage on O&G fast cavalry, pump wagons, Squig units, and to a lesser extant chariots. Like most armies, a Razordon team sticking to long range shots can shoot at the front arc of an orc or goblin block and the best they can hope for is a long-shot charge facing a potent stand and shoot. Orc and Goblin units are generally so cheap and large that you won’t put much of a dent in most blocks. If you are out of chaff units to shoot up, you should probably charge your Razordons into the flank of something already engaged in close combat.

    Ancient Stegadons: The tougher stand and shoot makes it slightly less vital to get the charge and the accompanying impact hits. The higher strength attacks make Ancient Stegadons a little better at smooshing orcs than the smaller Stegadon wounding on 2s instead of 3s. The extra strength doesn’t add any killing power versus the regular Stegadon when fighting Goblins, however.

    An Engine of the Gods will do great, particular if you can aim the Burning alignment at lots of smaller units.

    Troglodon: I see your Waagh, and I raise you one Primevil Roar. I think Troglodons will do better against O&G armies than most foes, mainly for the roar. The acid spit has a handy niche against the greenskins: melting Fanatics before they reach your lines. To keep your Troglodons from getting in over their heads, I recommend sending them into the flank of a block of goblins as soon as you can. The Goblins can’t really threaten a Trogolodon very well and they are the O&G unit most likely to fail a Fear or Terror test.


    Slann: The spells of the Big and Little Waagh! synergize nicely with O&G play style, but they can’t really compete with our big toads in mystical might, even if they take several wizards. Deployment wise, a lone Slann doesn’t have to worry about enemy shooting too much against the Greenskins, especially if you make him ethereal. You DO have to worry about mobile units catching your lone Slann in close combat. With a Temple Guard your Slann is a lot safer, but a Temple Guard Deathstar can still be brought low if enough units are brought to bear against it and a typical O&G has a lot of units.

    Lore Selection for Slann

    High Magic is a good place to start. Walk Between Worlds is a great way to deal with Mangler Squigs and Night Goblin Fanatics. Fiery Convocation will really rip apart large units and Soul Quench will take care of any chaff unit.

    A Wandering Deliberation Slann will do well against O&G. You’ll usually have plenty of chaff units to shoot magic missiles at and you will never run out of targets to hit with Spirit Leech. The buffs and hexes are useful too.

    Life is a good lore versus pretty much any army. It has a lot of cheap spells your can rattle off one after the other if you prefer lots of small spells. If you prefer shooting for heavy spells, Dwellers is very powerful, essentially halving the model strength of the very large enemy blocks you are likely to face. Awakening of the Wood is good for clearing away mobile units to make a path for your skirmishers.

    Death is a great lore against Orcs and Goblins. If you take the characters out of the equation, the greenskin’s poor leadership will really show. You can use Doom of Darkness to make your foes even more prone to panic. Purple Sun will tear through orcs like a hungry skink through a pile of grubs.

    Orcs and Goblins have comparable combat statlines with Saurus and Skinks respectively. With Light buffs, they stand no chance against us. The direct damage spells are nice for clearing away smaller chaff units too.

    Fire is a nice lore against greenskins. A lot of armies take trolls, so nullifying regeneration is nice. Most armies take a few smaller units so you can use fire direct damage to wipe them out which could potentially cause panic tests to larger units nearby and giving your own mobile units a clear field. If you want to use Fire spells on larger units instead of the chaff units, Kindleflame helps you whittle down the larger targets with repeated spells. Flame Cage is probably the best anti-greenskin spell

    Heavens is a good lore whether via a Slann or a Skink Priest. With how closely matched LM stats are to O&G stats, Curse of the Midnight Winds, Ice Shard Blizzard and Harmonic Convergence are often enough by themselves to swing a close combat in your favor. The direct damage spells are nice for slapping down smaller units. The one weak point is Comet of Cassandora. Most Orc and Goblin play styles favor aggressive rapid advances so it takes more finesse and luck to get Comet to hit the enemy without endangering your own units. Unfortunately O&G have relatively few flyers to use the Lore attribute on.

    Shadow is a good lore versus orcs, less so against Goblins. Goblins have higher Initiative scores making them less vulnerable to the Pit of Shades and Penumbral Pendulum. Being weaker than orcs, they have weaker stats to begin with making both the Shadow hexes and Okkam’s Mindrazor a little redundant.

    Beasts is okay but not ideal. Lizardmen characters are tougher than O&G characters already and the buffs make them demigods. The problem with such a strategy is they can keep feeding your superlizards unit champions and cheap units while tearing apart the rest of your army. I’d probably stick with Wyssans from High or WD Slann or the occasional Skink Priest.

    Metal is probably the worst lore to take against greenskins. Apart from Black Orcs, Boar Riders, Boar Chariots, and Arachnaroks, the O&G don’t have any units with armor saves of 4+ or better.

    Old Bloods and Scar Veterans: You have to figure out what you want to do with them before equipping them. Do you want them to take down scores of regular troops and boost the CR of your Saurus blocks? Then you should lean towards things that give your Saurus extra attacks. Do you want them to take down the heavies on the Orc and Goblin side? Then you should lean towards things that give your Saurus more strength (like the old reliable great weapons). A Carnosaur has no cannons to fear, which makes using one less risky than other games but you still have to worry about stone throwers. The real danger to a Carnosaur is getting stuck in the tarpit of a massive unit while all your mighty attacks are wasted on challenges with unit champions.

    Skink Priest: They can provide their usual support roles to a Slann, particularly useful as caddies or to aim magic missiles. Given the lack of magical power Orcs and Goblins bring to the table, you can make due without a Slann. In which case a skink priest or two with dispel items ought to keep the greenskin shamans from running roughshod over you. Heavens and Beasts have good signature spells.

    Skink Chief: They can take on a Goblin character, but they can’t last long in the face of a pack of rank and file goblins, let alone orcs. I don’t see much call for Skink Chiefs if they aren’t on a mount of some kind unless you are worried about restraining your predatory fighters.

    Special Characters: None of our special characters positively scream anti-green skin, but none of them seem especially weak against O&G either.
  3. MI_Tiger
    Temple Guard

    MI_Tiger Member

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    Nice rundown of Orc & Goblins (my second army).

    You pointed out that several O&G units have Random Movement (Pump Wagons, Fanatics, Manglers). It is worth a reminder that you do not get a charge reaction against Random Movement, so it make sacrificial skinks a little less useful unless they can charge.
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  4. Wistrel

    Wistrel New Member

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    Great tactica Scalenex, my friend who plays dwarves also has an O&G army he has yet to use in 8ed, but Ill definately be taking another look at this when it comes to fighting it :)
  5. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    Superlizards, nice.

    Great write-up as usual. I must add that OnG are not usually one of the hardest armies to play against. The biggest issue I have with them is that the shear amount of troops that they pump out is often overwhelming for our army. I prefer to take Terradons over Chamo's for this reason. Plus sometimes you can pop out fanatics with your vanguard move.
  6. Caprasauridae

    Caprasauridae Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the great write-up! I have a friend who plays O&Gs, but he lives rather far away and I rarely have a chance to play against him.

    I remember reading from their army book that if a flyer launches the Fanatics, the flyers will have to land and can only continue their move after the Fanatics have been moved. If this is correct, I think it severly reduces Terrandons' efficacy in luring them out.
  7. Scalenex

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    It does reduce their usefulness. Unfortunately, there is no way to dislodge Fanatics completely risk free. A Terradon's fly move and vanguard move lets you activate Fanatics while only putting themselves at risk as opposed to putting the bulk of your army at risk. If you can come at a block of Night Goblins sideways the Fanatics will activate in a direction away from your main lines which is even better. It's generally better to trigger Fanatics sooner than later because the longer they whirl around the better their odds are of killing themselves or battering into the O&G blocks allowing you to concentrate shooting on the Fanatics that actually pose a threat.

    While you can trigger Fanatics in a similar fashion with Chamo Skinks, Terradons can move out of harms way and on to their targets quicker and easier than Chamo Skinks (assuming they don't get hit from the first release).
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  8. Caprasauridae

    Caprasauridae Well-Known Member

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    Wow, ok, didn't think of it that way. Yes, clearly it is better to release those Fanatics sooner than later and away from the bulk of your forces. Still, better hope your opponent rolls poorly for those D6 wounds or the price will get really high...
  9. Lord Cedric

    Lord Cedric Member

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    Nice tactica write-up and thank you!

    I've been playing O&G for most of this entire year almost as a main army. I like to dedicate myself to an army for a good lengthy span so I can learn enough with them to understand strengths and weaknesses better and have an overall good experience.

    It's important to understand that the Fanatic controller can *choose* in which initial direction the Fanatic is released. They can choose to still have it released in the direction of your main troops. All the Terradons would do is simply trigger the release.

    Also, doubly check on how far away his NEXT unit is and what type. If his unit of Night Goblins is around 2 to 4 inches away from a unit of Savage Orcs, fodder Night Goblins, trolls or a unit that has a magical ward save.. be *very* cautious on triggering the release of the fanatics! This is a very effective O&G tactic to "bounce" or "shoot" Fanatics very far distance unexpectedly where the player would damage his own troops (which is minimal risk with Ward Saved/Regen/Fodder troops) just to hit that unit of Cold One Cavalry that is ready to charge into their Savage Orcs/Trolls/etc.

    How does this work? Well, say you charge your Cold One Cavalry into the big block of Savage Orcs and 2 inches behind them are a unit of Night Goblins. When you move your charge distance towards the Savage Orcs and are within 8" of the Night Goblin unit that contains Fanatics (it doesn't matter if there is another unit inbetween you and the Fanatics!!), the O&G player then announces that unit has Fanatics, declares which direction they will be initially travelling and from what point in the NG unit it(they) will be starting (for measurment point.. and yes, they can be released from the back of the unit going frontwards!) and proceeds to roll the distance traveled. He purposely placed 2" infront of the NG's a unit of Savage Orcs just for this so announces the Fanatics release towards his own Savage Orcs!! He rolls a 5 and voila! The S.O. are hit with fanatics taking a mear 4 points of wounds, but saving 3 from ward saves.. but wait!! The Fanatics rules state that they cannot stop inside of a unit, so must be placed 1" away from the unit it just hit in the same direction it was released.. which purposely was towards your Cold One Cavalry which is now in your way of the charge! Since your CoC is in the middle of charging they run right into the Fanatics first taking lots of damage (whirling death throws are deadly!! giving a 2D6 S5 armour piercing hits!.. though the Fanatics will be dead afterwards) before you complete your charge into the Savage Orcs, assuming they are capable after the Fanatics impact hits.

    So remember, the Fanatic controlling player can release them in any direction initially. What side you come within 8" of does not matter. And be warry of the distance the NG unit is from another O&G unit.

    - Lord Cedric
    Scalenex likes this.
  10. Old Mossy

    Old Mossy Active Member

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    Really nice write-up. You managed to sum up a long list pretty succinctly.

    One extra point about Doom Divers - not just str 5, but also allow no armour save! These bad boys eat cavalry for breakfast. "Your mounted scar-vet has the dawnstone? Cool story."

    Interesting point about terradons and deployment hogs. I've always preferred the chamo skinks, given points and the extra -to hit for being chameleons, but the extra manoeuvrability of terradons might mean I start fielding them more often.
  11. Scalenex

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I just revised this Tactica for the new book.
  12. Iniesta
    Jungle Swarm

    Iniesta New Member

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    I agree for the most part of your analysis, but there are several things that could be added/fixed.
    Fanatics can be released in any direction, not just the one that triggers it.
    kroxigors do really not deal with trolls wery well. Assume 350 points of both = 10 trolls and 7 krox.
    Trolls strike first regardless of charge cause of greatweapons: 30 attacks= 15 hits and 9 wounds, after saves 7.5 wounds
    then only 7 krox left who gain 15 attacks, hit 7.5 + another 1.25 hits from predatory roar. thats 7,29 wounds which the trolls save half from regen. Solid loss for the krox when equal pointsize.
    squig herds are not skirmishers and always damage through loss of controll so a 30p only squig unit can be a cheesy but good litle bomb.
    Savage orcs only come as big uns with ad choppas and 3 str 5 in first round of combat (+ probably 5+ ward from accompanying wizard). and can wreck most things. Exploit frenzy would be my advice and get a countercharge in the side after a forced pursue/overrun.
  13. novatomato

    novatomato Member

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    A note on nasty skulkers, They always have Always strike First. On the turn they are revealed they get Killing Blow.
    They are also characters so can be challenged out (and can issue challenges). The idea is to have three of these fellas pop out after getting charged by a big bad blender type character and allocate all NINE (two attacks base plus they have two hand weapons) onto the character. With Always Strike First you hope to get a Killing Blow hit in or two.
    Combined with the Goblins signature spell or re rolling all To Hit and to Wound rolls it can actually be quite effective. The best way to protect a character when this happens is to issue a challenge. the odds of being killing blowed is significantly reduced but you won't be able to make mince-meat of the unit with your super lord.

    The really are Nasty Skulking Nuisances.

    So, I prefer to mostly ignore regular goblin units with my characters and just target them with other means (Sallies, or Monsters thunderstomping, stuff like that.)
  14. Lawot

    Lawot Active Member

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    A note on Squig Hoppers:
    These are excellent anti-Skink units, for a few reasons:
    1. Random Movement means they don't have the usual restrictions on charging. Because they don't actually declare charges, they just pick a direction and move, it doesn't matter which way they're facing and where their charge arc is. With other enemies, I can usually dance my Skink Skirmishers, Terradons and Chameleons around their units to keep up a steady stream of shooting without getting charged, leading their troops on a wild goose chase. Not so with Squigs; they have no blind spots.
    2. Random Movement means no flee, and no stand and shoot - two of the most useful things that Skinks do, other than dying.
    3. Squig Hoppers are Skirmishers, which means further protection against Skink shooting.
    4. Moving 3D6" means that Squig Hoppers close the distance to your army fast, as long as they don't totally whiff their movement rolls.
    5. The Goblins riding the Squigs are usually incidental, with their WS 2, S3 T3. But not against Skinks.

    All this together usually means that the Squig Hoppers have each cleared a unit of Skinks off the table by the end of their second turn, taking only a few losses. I usually rely on Skinks to dictate the flow of the battle all game long, so this is a real setback for me. I think taking Skinks is still worth it, but I'm considering moving to Cohorts to take the brunt of the Squig Attack, and taking more Skirmishers so that, after his Squigs have done their damage, I still have some units in play.

    Finally, all of the above applies to the use of Squigs against Salamanders, as well; and at Strength 5, they can do some real damage to our otherwise combat-competent war beasts.
  15. Scalenex

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Rock Paper Scissors

    Goblin Cavalry: Goblin Wolf Riders, Goblin Spider Riders
    Orc Cavalry: Orc Boar Boyz, Savage Orc Boar Boyz
    Regular Orcs: Orc Boyz, Orc Arrer Boyz, Savage Orcs
    Elite Orcs: Big Boyz, Black Orcs, Orc Boar Cavalry, Savage Orc Boar Cavalry.
    All Trolls: Trolls, River Trolls, Stone Trolls
    Chariots: Snotling Pump Wagon, Goblin Wolf Chariot, Orc Boar Chariot
    All Squigs: Mangler Squigs, Goblin Squig Hoppers, Goblin Squig Herders

    Snotling Swarms
    Counter: Nothing
    Countered by: The entire Lizardmen army

    Saurus Warriors
    Counter: Goblin Infantry, Goblin Cavalry, Regular Orcs,
    Obliterated by: Arachnarok Spider
    Countered by: All Chariots, Orc Rock Lobber, All Trolls, All Squigs, Giants, Doom Diver Catapult, Orc Cavalry
    Worthy Foes: Savage Orcs, Orc Big Boyz, Black Orcs

    Cohort Skinks
    Counter (via tarpit): Elite orcs, all trolls, Arachnarok spiders
    Counter (via redirection): Orc Cavalry, Goblin Wolf Chariots, Orc Boar Chariots
    Countered by: Night Goblins, Goblin Cavalry, Anything that can force a fair fight.
    Special Circumstances: A unit of Cohort Skinks inside a building can fend off much stronger foes for a surprisingly long time and will utterly humiliate any cavalry.

    Skink Skirmishers
    Counter: Squigs, Goblin Cavalry in units of 10 or less, Snotling Pump Wagons, Giants, war machines (sort of)
    Counter (via redirection): Any infantry,
    Countered by: Stone Trolls, Orc Cavalry, Goblin Wolf Chariots, Orc Boar Chariots, Arachnaroks
    Worthy Foes: Goblin Cavalry in units of 10 or more. Night Goblin Fanatics

    Counter: Regular Orcs, Goblin Cavalry, Snotling Pump Wagons, Goblin Wolf Chariots
    Countered By: Orc Cavalry, Goblin infantry (in tarpit formation), River Trolls, Goblin Rock Lobbers, Goblin Spear Chukkas (sort of)
    Worthy Foes: Elite orcs, Arachnaroks, Giants, Trolls, Orc Boar Chariots

    Jungle Swarms
    Counter: Elite orcs (when fielded as redirector)
    Countered By: Orc Arrer Boyz, Chariots, Goblin archers
    Special Circumstances: A supporting attack by a Jungle Swarm bestowing poisoned attacks will provide enough positive bonus to roughly counteract the kill count an O&G character bestows on its side.

    Chameleon Skinks
    Counter: All war machines, Snotling Pump Wagons, Squigs, Giants, Savage Orc Boar Boyz (sort of)
    Countered by: Orc Boar Boyz, Goblin Wolf Chariots, Orc boar Chariots
    Worthy Foes: Goblin Cavalry, Night Goblin Fanatics, Doom Divers

    Counter: Goblin Rock Lobbers, Snotling Pump Wagons, Squigs, Giants (sort of)
    Counter (via redirection): Any infantry, Any cavalry (sort of)
    Countered by: Orc Arrer Boys, Night Goblin archers
    Worthy Foes: Spear Chukkas, Doom Divers

    Counter: Goblin Rock Lobbers, All chariots, Pump Wagons, Squigs, Goblin Cavalry,
    Countered by: Orc Arrer Boys, Night Goblin archers
    Worthy Foes: Spear Chukkas, Doom Divers, Orc Cavalry

    Counter: Giants, Arachnaroks, Chariots (sort of)
    Obliterated by: Elite orcs
    Countered by: Regular orcs, goblin infantry (via tarpits), Orc Cavalry, River Trolls, Goblin Cavalry (via redirect)
    Worthy Foes: Trolls and Stone Trolls

    Temple Guard
    Counter: All orc infantry, Stone Trolls, Trolls, Goblin Cavalry
    Countered by: Goblin infantry (in tarpit formation), Squigs, all war machines, Chariots (sort of), Giants
    Worthy Foes: River Trolls, Arachnaroks, Orc Cavalry

    Saurus Cavalry
    Counter: Chariots, Goblins, Stone Trolls, Snotling Pump Wagons Goblin Wolf Chariots
    Countered by: River Trolls, Goblin Cavalry (via redirection), Goblin Infantry (in tarpit formation), Night Goblin Fanatics
    Worthy Foes: Trolls, Orc Cavalry

    Counter: Goblin Infantry, Orc Infantry, Trolls (sort of)
    Countered by: Chariots, Squigs, Orc Arrer Boys, Orc Cavalry, Goblin Cavalry, Night Goblin Fanatics

    Counter: Goblin Cavalry, Snotling Pump Wagons, Squigs, Night Goblin Fanatics
    Countered by: All trolls, Orc Cavalry, Orc Boar Chariots, Orc Infantry, Spear Chukkas
    Worthy Foes: Orc Arrer Boyz, goblin archers, Goblin Wolf Chariots

    Stegadons and Ancient Stegadons
    Counter: Regular orcs, all chariots, Giants
    Countered by: River Trolls, Goblin Rock Lobbers
    Worthy Foes: Elite orcs, goblin infantry (in tarpit formation), Arachnaroks (Stegadon probably wins if they get the charge, they will probably lose if they don’t)

    Counter: Arachnarok, Giants, all Chariots, orc characters, orc cavalry (sort of), Stone Trolls
    Countered by: Goblin Infantry (tarpits), Goblin Rock Lobber, Doom Divers, Spear Chukkas (sort of)
    Worthy Foes: River Trolls, elite orcs

    Bastilodons, Ark of Sotek
    Counter: Goblin infantry, especially tarpits
    Countered by: Elite orcs, all war machines, Giants and Arachnaroks (sort of)
    Worthy Foes: Regular Orcs, Trolls

    Bastilodons, Solar Engine
    Counter: Squigs, fast cavalry, Chariots (sort of)
    Countered by: Elite orcs, all war machines, Giants and Arachnaroks (sort of)

    Counter: Goblin Cavalry, Snotling Pump Wagons
    Countered by: Arachnaroks, Giants (sort of), Orc Cavalry, elite orcs, goblin infantry (via tarpits), River Trolls, Goblin Rock Lobbers
    Worthy Foes: Orc Boar Chariots

    Our regular Saurus can go toe-to-toe with Orc and Goblin elite infantry. Our Temple Guard outclass their elite infantry.

    Goblins, point for point will beat Skinks in a straight fight, but Skinks are faster than them, shoot better, and panic less often.

    If this was all the Orc and Goblin army had, every match would fall in the Lizardmen’s favor. But Orcs and Goblins have a plethora of cheap characters.

    An Orc Oldblood can beat an Orc Warboss is a straight fight, but Orc and Goblin characters are CHEAP. Even if we play without a Slann, we cannot field as many fighting characters as the O&G can.

    It is feasible for an Orc and Goblin player to put a fighting character into every infantry and cavalry block. We cannot really do this. An infantry or cavalry block with a moderately kitted out fighting character moves up a level.

    An Goblin character will not seriously cause a serious problem for Saurus Warriors but it can adjust things when combined with a massive numbers advantage and all the other stuff Goblins use, (netters, knife skulkers, fanatics, supporting flank charges)

    Saurus Warriors fighting just the enemy
    Counter: Goblin Cavalry, Regular Orcs
    Obliterated by: Arachnarok Spider
    Countered by: All Chariots, Orc Rock Lobber, All Trolls, All Squigs, Giants, Doom Diver Catapult, Orc Cavalry
    Worthy Foes: Goblins Infantry, Savage Orcs, Orc Big Boyz, Black Orcs

    Saurus Warriors fighting an army where every unit has a fighting character
    Counter: Goblins Infantry, Goblin Cavalry
    Obliterated by: Arachnarok Spider, Orc Cavalry
    Countered by: All Chariots, Orc Rock Lobber, All Trolls, All Squigs, Giants, Doom Diver Catapult, Savage Orcs, Orc Big Boyz, Black Orcs
    Worthy Foes: Regular Orcs

    Orc and Goblins have more army options than most, so it’s harder to guess what your opponent is going to do, some favor orcs, some favor goblins, some favor war machines, some favor monsters.

    Point for point, Night Goblins are clearly more effective than Goblins, especially for tarpits. Night Goblin archers are clearly more effective than Orc Arrer boys. It is very common to see armies with small chaff units of Night Goblin archers and really large tarpits of Night Goblin spearmen. The upgrades for Night Goblin Netters and Fanatics are very cheap for what they do though occasionally you see archer chaff blocks without these upgrades.

    Savage Orcs are clearly more effective than Orc Boyz. Savage Orc boar riders are clearly more effective than Orc Boar Riders. Most armies will field a very large group of Savage Orc Big Boyz either on foot or on boars and they will put their army general or BSB in said unit.

    River trolls are clearly more effective than all other trolls, especially when fighting Lizardmen given our relatively low Weapon Skill stats.

    Goblin wolf riders are generally viewed as more effective than spider riders, but I think spider riders are undervalued slightly, especially against Lizardmen.

    Arachnaroks are better than Giants, at least against Lizardmen. Giants are very vulnerable to Skink shooting and Arachnaroks are nigh imperious to it. We can still counter an Arachanrok with Saurus cowboys, Carnosaurs and Kroxigor but these very same units can also carve up giants.

    Okay so most competitive armies are built on the backs of Savage Orcs and Night Goblins for the bulk of their bodies. It maybe infantry based or it may be a combined arms approach between Cavalry and Infantry. It’s up to player preference whether they lean towards monsters or artillery as their favorite backup.

    Most armies take a few Squigs or Night Goblin fanatics. You need to dedicate some of your Skirmishers to eradicate these before going after their monsters and war machines or you will regret your decision to ignore these threats. Mangler Squigs seem to easily be the most popular Squig unit in the game.

    One thing I noticed is that most Orc and Goblin players have a healthy laisses faire attitude towards Animosity. That means surprisingly few people bother with Black Orcs. When you do see Black Orcs, Grimgor is more often than not the army general.

    There are exceptions to this rule, but most Orc and Goblin players don’t bother with a lot of wizards, especially if they are planning to fight Lizardmen.

    If I was planning an anti-Lizardmen list I would fill my Core with Night Goblins, Goblin Spider Riders, and Savage Orc Big Boyz. I would take as many Arachnaroks as I can afford. I’d put a fighting character in every non-chaff unit. I’d take some Rock Lobbers or Doom Divers. Any points left, I’ll get Orc Boar Chariots and Savage Orc Boar Cavalry or put my general on a Wyvern.

    Of course, I would also take the Lore of Undeath if possible (what else is new?), but I think it would synergize well with the Orc and Goblin army. That and I’m not super impressed with the O&G base lores.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
  16. Lizards of Renown

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Awesome Tactica @Scalenex thanks.

    I’ll be fighting O&G as soon as lockdown over.
    Warden and Scalenex like this.

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