7th Ed. Overrun?

[Aparach]

Situation: Engien of the gods charges 5 Knights of Chaos. in the magicphase, everyone is obliterated, leaving the steggy out of combat. Can I overrun after attacks in the magic phase?

 

[strewart]

I would say no, since overrun only happens in the combat phase.

 

[Youngblood]

My comrades and I had this very same argument not too long ago actually for a very similar situation. I don't have my rule book right in front of me, but if you look in the overrun section it states something to the effect of "an overrun may be declared if at the end of the combat phase the charging model is no longer engaged in combat."

So to answer your question, no the Engine can't overrun during the magic phase, like Strewart said. You can still overrun in the combat phase, however.

 

[Revered_Guardian]

Interesting topic, but doesnt it say that if the unit that charges kills all of the enemy it is engaged with it can declare an overrun (only on first turn of cc)????

 

[Caneghem]

"If a unit charges into combat and, by the end of that turn's combat phase all its enemies have been wiped out, the unit may make a pursuit move, even with nobody left alive to pursue."

Magic happens before the end of the turn's combat phase, and it says the enemies just need to be wiped out, not necessarily wiped out by hand to hand combat.

 

[strewart]

I guess then it would depend on whether they count as 'in combat' at the start of the combat phase even if there is no one in base contact? If in combat is counted from when you successfully charge then there may be a case for it, but if in combat is counted from the start of the combat phase which seems more logical then no.

 

[Caneghem]

I guess then it would depend on whether they count as 'in combat' at the start of the combat phase even if there is no one in base contact? If in combat is counted from when you successfully charge then there may be a case for it, but if in combat is counted from the start of the combat phase which seems more logical then no.

Just based on how the situation is usually referred to, I would say they are "in combat" after the completion of a successful charge. Once the charge is completed, you can't shoot at said enemy unit any more because it is considered to be "in combat"... although you can clearly still use Burning Alignment

The wording of the overrun rule definitely indicates that GW didn't have the idea of the enemy being wiped out by magic in mind. But as written, it says "by the end" of the turn's combat phase and not "over the course of" the turn's combat phase. The latter would clearly imply the killing had to be done via combat phase. As to intent, that's still up in the air. The other part of overrun says the unit surges forward, eager for more enemies to kill. With this imagery in mind, maybe they will FAQ it that you can't make an overrun move.

I don't know on this one, though to me it seems weird that if the BA wiped out all but one, and the last was killed by impact hits then you can overrun, but wipe out that one extra with BA and you can't. Just feels inconsistent. If anything, the steg would be less slowed down if they were all burned up when he gets there.

 

[strewart]

Impact hits simulate the model charging through the unit though... Just for the simplicity of the game they have to keep it at the front. Play any of the total war games and watch chariots or elephants hit infantry and you will see what impact hits do to units.

I would find it strange that they would get a lust for blood from slaughtering their opponent and run on into the next opponent when..... They didn't actually slaughter their opponent. But this is clearly not thinking about the rules of it, just the logic, which never applies.

 

[Caneghem]

Impact hits simulate the model charging through the unit though... Just for the simplicity of the game they have to keep it at the front. Play any of the total war games and watch chariots or elephants hit infantry and you will see what impact hits do to units.

I would find it strange that they would get a lust for blood from slaughtering their opponent and run on into the next opponent when..... They didn't actually slaughter their opponent. But this is clearly not thinking about the rules of it, just the logic, which never applies.

Hehe, stegadons are a lot like the war elephants. Rome total war was the last one I played, but I like the look of Empire. Gonna need a new machine to run it probably. Impact hits were fun in that game. I think a cool way to visualize it in warhammer would be something like the enemy unit actually gets moved backward based on how effective the impact was. I was just using impact hits as an example though, still get to overrun just with killing em normal style. If the enemy gets wiped by the engine I could imagine the steg just standing there going WTF? Or I could see it continue its movement, looking for something to smash.

How about this for a house rule. The stegadon takes a Leadership test in this situation. If he fails, he has no idea the enemies were ever reached, so can make an overrun. If he passes, he gets to the charred corpses and stomps on them, trying to do his master proud (no overrun).

 

[strewart]

Any rules you add into the area just complicate the matter even if they are logical. GW are really going for a simplified look on the rules front, you are right that impact hits (or at least from something like a stegadon) would probably push the entire unit back, and impact hits from a steg would do faaaar more damage than from a chariot, which isn't reflected in the rules. I like the idea of a leadership test, it makes sense, it is still a house rule though. Maybe that leadership test could be simplified to a dice off, still representing the same thing but following the rule of follow the dice if you are unsure.

Although another way to look at it, get something big and heavy. A sword if you have one, or an ax. Charge something and swing at it while charging. Then change the thing you are charging to something imaginary, so you just swing at air. That is what is happening if the unit is burned in the magic phase, the steg is all braced to hit the unit and in full swing, then it isn't there. There is a hell of a follow through, in fact you are likely to hurt yourself or at the very least completely lose balance. This is why I think if you destroy something before the combat phase even starts you won't be overrunning.

Slightly off topic, Empire Total War is good, but the AI is terrible and the balance is a bit off, plus it still has a few glitches in it. Don't rush to buy it, wait for a few more patches and you will be much happier. I mean, at the moment the AI do not know how to land troops from ships, so if you start off as england you don't need to leave ANYTHING at home, woohoo! And watching a 'war' between an AI Francd and England is like watching paint dry except at least with the paint it eventually does something.

 

[Aparach]

Many good replies here, thanx guys! Guess the best thing to do, as in many other cases, would be to agree with my opponent ahead of the game.. Though it seems to me that to overrun would be most fit by the current RAW IMO.

 

[blackhawk]

it is easy, you don't get any overrun.

the rules specifies that if the enemy is whiped out you can overrun.
this rules is stated in the combat phase part of the rulebook.


becouse the enemies are already killed in magic phase, before combat. there has never be a combat pfase for that unit.
so all the rules implying on combat phase dont even work, becouse there has never been a combat.

it has happened to me a lot of times, sometimes it is good, but sometimes i really needed the overrun and screwed my self.

so before activating your engine, rethink your tactics for the upcoming enemies turn, and see if it is really necessary to do the damage power.