AoS Point cost for loadouts

[Canas]

Does anyone have any (house) rules for point-costs for loadouts of different units? Since my girlfriend has a stormforged army led by a lord celestant on a dracoth they don't need to take battleshock until he dies. Which makes my banner carriers in units of saurus Knights, guards & warriors fairly useless. So I want to see if there are some reasonable rules to take out special models of a unit and in turn make the unit slightly cheaper. Obviously this won't Always work, but stuff like banners, wardrums or special weapons (e.g. the Moon hammer for a kroxigor) seem like they should have a mechanic like this given that the abilities they bring can in certain battles be (virtually) useless. Especially banners/wardrums/warhorns/etc. given that the model wielding them still has the "normal" loadout of the rest of his unit. At least the special weapons could switch to a normal weapon if the special weapon isn't of much use.

 

[Bowser]

There is no difference in price if you have the musicians, alphas, or standar bearers or not. They are a free feature, and while you may not use the ability, they always have the normal weapon of their unit. They attack the same as the rest of the unit. Except moonhammer. I you take that you use it's attack profile, and alpha just jaims the extra attack. So there is no reason not to take banners and musicians.

 

[Canas]

meh.. how annoying. I'd love to be able to forsake minor abilities in exchange for cheaper units in certain scenarios.

 

[Killer Angel]

See it this way: the one listed is the cost of the basic unit. Full command comes for free!

 

[Canas]

See it this way: the one listed is the cost of the basic unit. Full command comes for free!

That's all nice and such, but it's slightly annoying when an ability is made irirelevant (e.g. the saurus warrios cohort ability is virtually useless when you summon them, or the banners being useless with a lord celestant on dracoth as your opponent). Would be nice to be able to toon them a bit by forgoing special abilities like that in some way. Ah well, suppose it's just a quirk of the game

 

[Seraphage]

That's all nice and such, but it's slightly annoying when an ability is made irirelevant (e.g. the saurus warrios cohort ability is virtually useless when you summon them, or the banners being useless with a lord celestant on dracoth as your opponent). Would be nice to be able to toon them a bit by forgoing special abilities like that in some way. Ah well, suppose it's just a quirk of the game

Just shoot that little bugger down and taje advantage of it and of the fear caused by our awesome dinos !

 

[Canas]

Just shoot that little bugger down and taje advantage of it and of the fear caused by our awesome dinos !

If only the lord celestant wasn't one of the most powerfull units in the army. When I did a match with my gf the other day he was the secondlast to die, and that's with a sunblood hammering away at him for most of it (yay for shitty rolls and a lord-relictor constantly healing the bastard).

To be honest, the celestants ability to negate battleshock is stupendously powerfull, especially alongside his good basestats, other abilities. Ah well he died, eventually

 

[Killer Angel]

That's all nice and such, but it's slightly annoying when an ability is made irirelevant (e.g. the saurus warrios cohort ability is virtually useless when you summon them, or the banners being useless with a lord celestant on dracoth as your opponent). Would be nice to be able to toon them a bit by forgoing special abilities like that in some way. Ah well, suppose it's just a quirk of the game

I'm not saying it's a common thing, but it's far from rare, to have an ability that is totally useless against certain armies (or units): take the Crypt Flayers, that (as shooting attack) can inflict mortal wounds rolling 1d6+1 vs your bravery (equal or higher).

You know what irks me? the fact that I can take 10 warriors, then 20 warriors, because they go on multiple of ten models.
Yeah, I can take 15 warriors... paying the points for 20.

 

[Canas]

I'm not saying it's a common thing, but it's far from rare, to have an ability that is totally useless against certain armies (or units): take the Crypt Flayers, that (as shooting attack) can inflict mortal wounds rolling 1d6+1 vs your bravery (equal or higher).

You know what irks me? the fact that I can take 10 warriors, then 20 warriors, because they go on multiple of ten models.
Yeah, I can take 15 warriors... paying the points for 20.

meh, at least the crypt flayers fullfill a clear niche with that ability and would work versus most armies. Plus I'd imagine the undead have scary stuff that reduces bravery much like our banners. I'd imagine it'd be productive against most armies if you focus on using it.

The lord-celestants abilitiy however is literally uncounterable with the exception of "horribly murder him" which basicly means his counter is "just win". Which annoys me.... hell if the area wasn't so large at least you could try some manouvering to get around it...

What irks me more about the amounts in which you field stuff is that it doesn't necesarly correspond with how they're sold. Suarus knigths are sold per 8. you field them per 5. And the start collecting sets are even more of a mess (here have 12 saurus warriors, why the hell 12)

 

[Seraphage]

meh, at least the crypt flayers fullfill a clear niche with that ability and would work versus most armies. Plus I'd imagine the undead have scary stuff that reduces bravery much like our banners. I'd imagine it'd be productive against most armies if you focus on using it.

The lord-celestants abilitiy however is literally uncounterable with the exception of "horribly murder him" which basicly means his counter is "just win". Which annoys me.... hell if the area wasn't so large at least you could try some manouvering to get around it...

What irks me more about the amounts in which you field stuff is that it doesn't necesarly correspond with how they're sold. Suarus knigths are sold per 8. you field them per 5. And the start collecting sets are even more of a mess (here have 12 saurus warriors, why the hell 12)

The collect box are all about value. Even with 5 warriors, 5 knights and a vet it would be good value for money. Think of it more of as " 2 bonus warriors to experiment with" etc for me

 

[Canas]

O yea, the collect boxes are very nice in terms of value for money, but in combination with the "you field stuff in X numbers" it just feels wrong for certain boxes. The start collecting, the saurus Knights, the age of sigar starter set, the silver tower quest. There's plenty of official sources that sell a "wrong" amount. Not to mention models breaking and all the othe ways in which you can end up with odd amounts of models. There's really no reason to say you field them in groups of X. A minimum size and a point cost per additional model would make it all so much less weird .

 

[Killer Angel]

meh, at least the crypt flayers fullfill a clear niche with that ability and would work versus most armies. Plus I'd imagine the undead have scary stuff that reduces bravery much like our banners. I'd imagine it'd be productive against most armies if you focus on using it.

The lord-celestants abilitiy however is literally uncounterable with the exception of "horribly murder him" which basicly means his counter is "just win".

It doesn't work "versus most armies". All daemons, all undead, lizzies... we're talking about 7 armies with Bravery 10, that don't need to rely on the presence of a single model. Which may not be on the Battlefield, because you can face a Stormcast army without a Lord-Celestant.
The only way Death got to reduce bravery, it's the Screaming Skull Catapult, and this means that you must field a combined army (Flesh Eaters + Tomb Kings), and that's a -2 to bravery at most... still useless vs bravery 10.
To face an army with a Lord-celestan is not the norm, and anyway your army should always include some assassin to deal with enemy's key characters.

 

[Canas]

It doesn't work "versus most armies". All daemons, all undead, lizzies... we're talking about 7 armies with Bravery 10, that don't need to rely on the presence of a single model. Which may not be on the Battlefield, because you can face a Stormcast army without a Lord-Celestant.
The only way Death got to reduce bravery, it's the Screaming Skull Catapult, and this means that you must field a combined army (Flesh Eaters + Tomb Kings), and that's a -2 to bravery at most... still useless vs bravery 10.
To face an army with a Lord-celestan is not the norm, and anyway your army should always include some assassin to deal with enemy's key characters.

mm that's surprising, would've expected less factions to have such high bravery. And would've expected more bravery reduction for the undeath.

What's the norm for the stormforged generals then?

As for assasins; in general I prefer it when I have multiple options. E.g. assasinate it, stick it in a tarpit somewhere while you focus on killing his allies, bombard it from a distance, outmanouver the effect, etc. The only thing that really annoys me is that the command ability has a whopping 24" range, which is kind of huge, all you need to do to use it is have him vaguely near the frontline and you're safe. By contrast take the bonus attack an eternity warden gives to his guards, in order to benefit from that they guards need to be near him, not halfway across the battlefield, which limits their manouverbility and makes it possible to seperate the guards from their eternity warden to negate the bonus. Just sticking assasins on someone tends to feel a little bit too much as "just win" to me in a lot of cases.

 

[Killer Angel]

What's the norm for the stormforged generals then?
(snip)

The only thing that really annoys me is that the command ability has a whopping 24" range, which is kind of huge,

Yeah, 24" is huge, i cannot deny that!

And I can also agree that Lord Celestant as general may be the norm (in Stormcast-only armies), but it still means that you MUST pick the Lord and pick it as general. It's not that the Stormcast have printed on each warscroll "immune to battleshock", while we have printed "Bravery 10".

Anyway, it's a command ability that is useful as other command abilities are. I cannot exploit my carno's Blood Roar against Stormcast, but I still can chew them to pieces.

 

[Seraphage]

Well I think you are falling into the trap of comparing different things. These are 2 totally different Heroes with totally different purposes. It is like comparing a hero with a 5" ability with our Lord Kroak.. doesn't really make sense

And besides, don't forget, the beauty of Warhammer lies in its complexity as it is one of the most complicated strategic games out there and that is why we love it. Nobody promised us an easy win against anyone and even if he did, we probably wouldn't even care enough to discuss about it, think over it or make such a lovely forum to exchange ideas, would we now ?

 

[Canas]

Well I think you are falling into the trap of comparing different things. These are 2 totally different Heroes with totally different purposes. It is like comparing a hero with a 5" ability with our Lord Kroak.. doesn't really make sense

True true, I'm just surprised that an ability that negates routing exists with such a massive radius. I'm used to effects that increase/decrease the likelyhood of a rout to be fairly limited in range so you have to make a choice as to where to use it. A 24" radius just seems massive for what it does.

And easy wins are no fun, but neither is "Always try to bum-rush my girlfriends general". It'l be a while till she'l get some real alternatives to using the lord celestant, and it'd be nice to have more than one tactic to dealing with his abilities