Poll: Game of Thrones trial by combat... who do you choose as your champion?

That's why I was wondering if there was a flashback, because then young Robert becomes a choice.

 

Man I don't remember that at all from that scene, but in my defense the books are so long it is unlikely anybody remembers all the scenes completely.

 

And? Aren't we playing the game of thrones here?

 

Come now gentlemen, I should hope that I will not be required to release a FAQ/ERRATA for the thread.

 

I think it is about time I entered the fray!

First off, let's look at the easiest eliminations:

• Robert Baratheon➨ By far the weakest choice in my opinion. While he might have been a skilled combatant in his prime (although I still wouldn't choose him), he is now a mere shell of his former self. His physical condition is atrocious; slow, cumbersome and severely lacking in stamina. A lifetime of gluttony leaves him in no condition to defeat anybody of significance. To be honest, if he were my champion, I'd better fancy entering the arena and fighting for myself.
• Ser Barristan Selmy➨ A force to be reckoned with in his younger days. We see the respect that Jamie has for the skills displayed by Barristan. Even in his elder years, he is still a dangerous warrior, but I do not feel that he is a match against the upper echelon of GoT fighters, who are either in their prime, or at least much closer to it. Alas, father time is undefeated.

The next set of eliminations are also easy to come by courtesy of Brienne of Tarth:

• Loras Tyrell➨ Easy elimination, he already fought Brienne and lost. While he is obviously skilled, his experience centers more around playing war than actually fighting war. Overall, his skills, experience and physical attributes are no match against the top dogs of our champion list
• Jamie Lannister➨ also lost to Brienne, although this fight comes with a major caveat. Jamie did have his hands shackled, was unarmored and was probably a fair bit weakened from his time in captivity. As such, we can't take too much from this particular fight aside from the fact that he still did seem quite confident at the start of it and was dispatched efficiently (with the caveats mentioned above). Even so, most of his greatest exploits come via stories; stories which are eluded to in the show (if I remember correctly) as potentially being a bit embellished. He is no doubt an exceptional fighter, we see demonstrations of such, but never to the level of some of the other choices on our list.
• Sandor Clegane (the Hound) ➨ The hound is a truly potent combatant. He is skilled, highly experienced, durable, ferocious and well armoured. But we've already seen him go up against Brienne and he did not come out on top. While many of our choices and decisions come down to speculation, in this instance we have direct evidence. Brienne beats him, and does so fairly. They were both equally well armed and ready for the fight. Clean win with no outside interference. Not only does she beat him in the sword fight, but also in the ensuing brawl. Consequently, while he is a solid choice, I can't see any justification for taking him over Brienne.

My final two eliminations are as follows:

• Jorah Mormont ➨ he is a decent fighter, but in this field that simply isn't enough. I can't picture him beating the likes of Jamie Lannister or the Hound, both of which I've already eliminated. My top 5 all have significant advantages over him in terms of strength, speed and/or experience. Overall, I rate him good, but not great.
• Bronn ➨ a great character who is a talented fighter and uses his cunning and clarity of thought to great effect. As @xoid mentioned he understands his limitations and advantages, which really plays in his favour throughout the series. However, if we grant him the ability to accurately assess his limitations/advantages, then we cannot ignore the fact that he acknowledges just what a difficult task taking out the Mountain would be. While he doesn't go as far as to say he can't beat him, he doesn't seem very confident in the matchup. In contrast Oberyn was dueling the Mountain with ease until... (well we know what happened ). Also, if Bronn didn't fancy his chances against the "regular" Mountain, imagine him trying to best the undead Mountain. Not a good matchup for him.

That finally leaves me with my top 5. I believe that a strong case can be made for any of these champions and none can easily be eliminated outright. Without further ado, my 4 runner-ups presented in no particular order...

• Brienne of Tarth ➨ Brienne is not a flashy as some of the other choices, but she is a dependable solid choice. In a head-to-head matchup from among our champions, she boasts the best record at 3-0. As discussed earlier, the Jamie fight is riddled with confounding variables, but the wins over Loras and the Hound are extremely impressive. She has demonstrated her skill on countless occasions throughout the show. She has a strong and powerful frame and can take an absolute beating without wilting. She also has a great mindset when it comes to fighting, no ego and all business. Battle tested, with a proven track record that we see in action as opposed to having to rely on tales of greatness as is the case with some of the others. A true case of show me what you can do as opposed to tell me what you can do. She is a complete package with no glaring weaknesses.
• Syrio Forel ➨ one of my favourite minor characters in the show. He is the wildcard or dark horse of the bunch. An argument can be made that he might be the most classically skilled/trained fighter in the show. Unfortunately we don't get to see much of him, so we are little bit more reliant of speculation and extrapolation. We only get to see him once in terms of actual fighting. He very impressively defeats 4 Lannister soldiers using only a wooden training sword. He is then cut down (off screen) by a fully armoured and armed Meryn Trant. I believe this highlights one of his two weaknesses. As skilled as he is, he is at a huge disadvantage in terms of physicality. He is significantly smaller and less powerful than most if not all of the other choices. While a sword acts as a force multiplier and doesn't require all that much strength to wield, in the bind, in recovery and especially in grappling, strength in extremely important. Meryn Trant is hardly an exceptional fighter (and would have lost to Syrio in a fair fight), but once Syrio's sword is cut in half, Syrio stood no chance. In the same situation I'd wager that Drogo or The Mountain would have still come out on top. His second (potential) weakness, is that from what little we know, I'm not too confident that he is as battle tested as the other fighters. It's one thing to spar in a controlled environment, but it is an entirely different matter to have an actual fight where there are no rules. Still, his skill and speed are as good as anyone else on the list, so he cannot be counted out.
• Gregor Clegane (the Mountain) ➨ while the "standard' version is already extremely scary and formidable, the undead version is terrifying force to be reckoned with. Simply put, he is by far the strongest and most durable fighter in the show. When fighting him, there is no room for error and until he is fully put out of commission he remains a massive threat (just ask Oberyn). Unfortunately for him, he also has a few downsides. I think he has a much lower fight IQ than the others, especially in undead form. He is also more of a brawler and less technically skilled. Lastly, he is a fair bit slower than the quicker fighters on our list. Trying to kill him outright is a mistake, and I think victory can best be achieved by carefully and methodically using superior speed and skill to take him down piece by piece.
• Oberyn Martell ➨ Fast, agile and highly skilled. Skill-wise he appears to be better than anyone outside of Syrio or my top pick. He was very easily beating the Mountain prior to his fatal mistake. If not for his overconfidence and blinding focus on revenge, he beats the Mountain in their duel. Since we're assuming that each combatant fights to the best of their abilities (as described in the rules) I don't see this as a major issue. As such, he is an extremely difficult matchup for just about anybody as he has an extremely potent blend of skill, finesse and speed.

That leaves us with my #1 choice... Khal Drogo! I have many reasons for choosing him and while there are some other great contenders, I don't believe anybody has such a dominating blend of attributes. Here we go:

• Cleanest fight - his fight with Mago is the most lopsided and dominate fight we see against worthy adversary. It isn't that he beat him, it's that Mago stood absolutely no chance. Drogo choses not to use his sword... Drogo choses not to use his daggers... he takes the man unarmed. It is clear from the fight that Drogo could have ended the fight at will and upon deciding to do so, he ends it in an instant. Drogo demonstrates that he can compensate for a lack of armour, even when fully unarmed. His opponent hits nothing but air. From this fight we instantly see that Drogo isn't some brutish brawler, the man is extremely skilled, quick and agile. Keep in mind to that Mago isn't some ordinary Dothraki warrior, no such man would have such an audience with the Khal. Mago is a higher ranking member of a tribe that assigns status based purely on one's fighting ability.
• Strength - Outside of Mountain (clearly), Drogo will enjoy a strength advantage over the rest of the field. Someone like the hound might come close, but not close enough
• Speed/agility - combined with the strength advantage mentioned above, this one really is the kicker in terms of physical superiority. In regards to speed/agility, Drogo has demonstrated that he is at least on par with Syrio and Oberyn... and significantly better than anyone else. Considering this mix of attributes in terms of strength, speed and agility, Drogo is the most athletic fighter of all of our potential champions. Syrio is fast but weak. The Mountain is strong but slow. Nobody can match Drogo in terms of overall physicality.
• Skill - his fight with Mago demonstrates this in spades. Fully unarmed, he killed is opponent with a single strike (Killing Blow special rule?) without taking any damage outside of the cut he allowed his opponent to get out of sheer disdain for his adversary's skill... prior to the start of the fight (which was a poor choice in hindsight, but wouldn't play a role in a trail by combat). Bottom line, he had no armour or a weapon to parry/block a blow with and was still untouchable.
• Experience!! - simply put, nobody is as experienced in terms of fighting and war like Drogo. The Dothraki are a warlike people that are constantly raiding and waging war. It is often said that iron sharpens iron. You get better at something by doing it and he does it in its purest form. In their culture, the strongest leads... and the strongest is easily Drogo. It is important to note that when one of their warriors loses a fight, their hair is cut off in shame.... anyone notice Drogo's hair? The man remains undefeated over the course of a very long time in a very warlike culture.

Drogo's only weakness as far as I can tell (other than a lack of antibiotics ) is his lack of armour. In a real world fight that is pretty paramount, but in the world of GoT, it can be overcome (yes yes, I do acknowledge the Jorah fight). After all, Robert was petrified of the unarmoured Dothraki making it to Westeros. Despite his troops being significantly more armoured, he knew that his forces could not defeat them. So if the Dothraki as a whole remain a huge threat despite their lack of armour, then the very best of their kind certainly is too. In the case of Drogo (as demonstrated), what is the need of armour if your opponent can't hit you?

In short, Drogo is as fast and skilled as anyone else. He is as strong or stronger than anyone outside of the mountain. And he is the most experienced fighter.

 

The seventh book will be easy to write as it will just be an 800 page description of the snow drifting across Westeros after the White Walkers wipe out humanity at the end of book 6 (my own personal theory/hope for the series).

 

That would be far better then the series end though.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

I have only seen the first series, so I have skipped reading everyone else’s answers to avoid hearing any spoilers. At the moment there are three stand-out choices for me:

• The Mountain is an obvious contender - extremely strong and vicious. His main weakness, however, is that his huge size would probably mean he’s pretty slow - a faster duellist could leap to the side and stab him in the leg to cripple him before finishing him off.
• Jaime is the most skilled duellist in Westeros, so he’s an obvious choice too. An enemy who’s just lost his sword to a deft parry is easy pickings regardless of his size or level of strength. However Jaime probably isn’t that tough, so if he does get hit himself, it would likely take him out of action for good.
• Lastly Khal is probably stronger than Jaime and more agile than the Mountain, as well as being utterly brutal - ripping an opponent’s throat out with his teeth is a horrendous way to kill someone. But then, while honour is a great thing normally, it wouldn’t be nearly as appealing if it caused my champion to lose, which I can’t afford given my life would be on the line too, so a fighter who will do anything to win is probably the best man for the job.

However, as I have mentioned above I have only seen the first series, so I will revisit this once I’ve watched a few more of them. Certainly I will not officially cast my vote until I have done so.

 

Fair enough. I'm going purely by what is presented in the show itself, as I have not read most of the books (and don't plan to unless/until Martin finishes the series). As such, the only information I have to go by are the few scenes he is portrayed in season 1.

If we do include book material as you described, that does rebalance things quite a bit. We'd have to grant the point that he does have significant previous experience, although at the time of season 1 he is "retired" from actual battle and instead taking on an instructor role. I'd liken that to a modern MMA coach who was previously a fighter vs. a current day active MMA fighter. Still, that does significantly close the gap in terms of experience... if we consider material outside the context of the show.

I'd say that is a huge disadvantage for him. He lacks armour just like Drogo, but does not have any of the physicality to compensate for it. That's why we see him lose to Meryn Trant. Even unarmed, would anyone bet against Drogo in a match against Trant? Trant is never presented as a supremely dangerous fighter in the show (especially when compared to our list of entrants) and Drogo could take him in the exact same fashion as he took Mago. One of the best ways to defeat armour is through grappling and Drogo demonstrated the ability to grapple in the only fight we see him in (as he had no weapon of his own and turned his opponent's weapon against him). Syrio is severely undersized and does not look like he would excel in this aspect. Also, why the heck did Syrio not pick up one of the real swords from the 4 fallen Lannister soldiers he had defeated? He had more than enough space between himself and Trant to do so.

In terms of Arya vs. Brienne, they were sparring and definitely not fighting. Arya although skilled, is not a front line fighter... which is likely the reason why she was omitted by who ever constructed the list. She relies on stealth, deception and getting the jump on her opponent. If you look at the brutality of the Hound vs. Brienne fight, it feels to me that Arya would not fare very well in such a contest.

A fair point in the sense that we do lack any direct evidence. He is only in the show for a single season, so we don't have much to go on and have to speculate (as is the case with Syrio as well). And speculation is admittedly less valuable than direct evidence!

In the absence of direct evidence, what can we speculate:

• He is strong enough, fast enough and has show significant skill in terms of grappling. This is one of the best ways to neutralize armour.
• King Robert was terrified of the Dothraki making their way to Westeros, despite them being unarmoured and Robert's forces being armoured. He obviously felt that they could make up for a lack of armour. If armour could thwart the Dothraki, they wouldn't be viewed as such a major threat (Robert going as far as saying they could not best them in an open field battle)
• with all the raiding, fighting and war waging, I think it would be unreasonable to assume that Drogo never came up against armour
• last point... see below

Mormont is actually a great example in favour of Drogo. Mormont (who is already a skilled combatant and entry in our list) defeated the Dothraki warrior with a large degree of difficulty. He won, but it was far from a clean victory. In a similar contest, Drogo took down his opponent in seconds with not trouble at all while completely unarmed. That is a night-and-day difference.

Also, look at the way that Mormont speaks on Drogo. There is almost a reverence in the way he describes Drogo's combat prowess. Mormont has a great deal of experience fighting with and against armour, and not for one second does he ever sound like he could go up against Drogo.


In short,

How do you fight without armour:

• parry or dodge effectively - Drogo already demonstrated near Matrix level ability to dodge incoming attacks
• dispatch your opponent quickly - Drogo did that too

How do you defeat armour:

• precision strikes (taking advantage of gaps or weak points in armor) - Drogo dispatches his opponent with a single strike, although while at extreme close range, I'd still argue demonstrates his skill in terms of precision
• power strikes using distally weighted weapons (warhammers, axes, maces) - we admittedly don't see him ever using such weapons, but it is undeniable that he would have the physical strength to do so
• grappling, take an armoured man down and he is easily dispatched with a dagger - Drogo would excel at this in terms of both his physical attributes and his demonstrated skills

 

When was the last time you watched that fight? I'd strongly suggest you revisit it.

Having just re-watched it yesterday, I completely disagree with the notion that there is even the slightest hint (even subconsciously) of him holding back due to some reluctance to harm a woman. Once that fight gets underway it is completely brutal and violent in a way that few other fights in GoT are. He does not appear to be holding back in the slightest and actually goes out of his way to deliberately inflict pain outside of what is necessary to win the fight.

True, but real armour has its weak points just the same. An eye slit, under the arm and virtually an point of articulation. Even the neck was a weaker spot as compared to other areas of the body (still protected, but more vulnerable due to the necessity of having to be able to move your head). Precision strikes were a real thing in history. That's why you see swords becoming more tapered as armour developed, they moved away from wider slashing blades to blades that could more easily be thrust into the gaps of the armor (in the case of plate) or directly through mail.

That said, a sword is one of the worst weapons to use against full plate armour. Swords are cool so we see them frequently in film, but on a real battlefield they often served as secondary weapons (like a pistol is to the primary weapon of an assault rifle).

Agreed, that is frequently the case.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, a real sword fight is less interesting than the fictional ones presented in movies/tv. Everything in regards to movie/tv fighting is stylized, exaggerated and altered to make it more tension-filled and interesting.

 

So I've been wondering how the Batman principle plays into this. The idea that given enough preparation time Batman can find a way to defeat almost anybody.

Who in the list would benefit most from knowing their opponent well before hand, and who is the least likely to change what they do in any circumstance.

I think the two Clagane boys are probably the least adaptable of the fighters, and would both get a boost in a situation where you go straight from saying there will be a fight to fighting, but I'm less sure the other side is the equation.

 

Also if we are allowed ringers can I get Wun Wun to be my champion?