Poll: What do you think of the End Times (rules + fluff + models)?

[NIGHTBRINGER]

A big discussion has opened up analyzing the merits (or lack there of... depending on your views) of the End Times. Some people absolutely love it, while others hold bitter feelings towards it.

So for this poll consider the End Times as a total package, factoring in rules, fluff and models released.

 

[Bainbow]

A good poll.

 

[borkbork]

Didn't vote, as I am missing the option: "I didnt bother with End times much/at all, so i dont really know"

However, the few things i picked up via the internet did not make me very enthousiastic about it.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Didn't vote, as I am missing the option: "I didnt bother with End times much/at all, so i dont really know"

However, the few things i picked up via the internet did not make me very enthousiastic about it.

That sounds like a "Pretty bad" vote!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

A good poll.

Thanks! I'm curious to see what the collective community thinks.

 

[pendrake]

Like the chef:

I didn't bother with End times much/at all, so I . . .

...have no direct experience.

All I have is what I can see or read on the internet:

• Glottkin model is hideous.
• Khornate model of chariot / tank / howizter / motorcycle THING is saved from being hideous only by being ridiculous.
• Herohammer was what 5th[?] edition was notorious for, and it seems to have reared its ugly glorious head again.
• They had so much respect for their shoddily carefully crafted 3000+ years long backstory that they blew up the planet..??
• I really disliked the way Warhammer magic worked and it sounds like they created more and more of same.

The haters are / were pretty convincing. The supporters, as they went about putting forward reasons to like ET, were just listing things that would only help me dislike ET Warhammer more.

So I gave this poll one of the thumbsdown votes.

 

[Overlord of Serpents]

The problem with the people who hate the End Times is that most if not all of them are people who quite frankly didn't read any of it. I don't know how frustrated I've gotten with people who talk about what garbage it is, yet if I sit down with them and walk them through the stories, the artwork, and the maps of campaigns and battles they say, "Oh shit, this is actually pretty awesome."

Sure, 25 years of fluff coming to an end really bites, especially for people like myself who had a lot invested in the fluff of warhammer. I write stories, make games, and enjoy all things about the warhammer fluff. The models and game are mere backdrops to me. But you know what? The End Times were fucking awesome. The only major complaint I would level at them is that they didn't resolve every single prophecy and I would've liked races like the greenskins and ogre kingdoms to get a lot more screen time. The last book was rushed, but the biggest complaint I hear about isn't some specific part a reader hates, just that it happened.

Well boo hoo, I'm so sick of hearing people whine about it. Warhammer had stagnated, folks. That's a fact. We weren't selling well anymore, the fluff refused to move forward. Did you read the 7th and 8th edition Lizardmen books? We LOST fluff, we didn't GAIN anything new, because they ran out of space! I Lizardmen literally couldn't move forward in fluff anymore unless they retconned multiple army books fluff to make it work. The world and become frozen solid, and quite frankly, it was time for it to die.

But now 8th is moving into video games! Vermintide, Total War: Warhammer?! There's plenty to look forward to! And I feel strongly that 9th is gonna be awesome. I'm so excited for the Age of Sigmar, especially since we got a mention on the poster! Being negative is toxic, it drives people away from the community and gives everyone a gloom and doom mindset for what is coming and drives me nuts, I'm sick of it.

Bleh. /endrant

 

[pendrake]

Did you read the 7th and 8th edition Lizardmen books? We LOST fluff, we didn't GAIN anything new...

That is true. As each edition was produced the self-inflicted need to write new things crowded out the old stories that were good.

So instead of enriching and extending the history of each army they just made a retconned mish-mash :: this is how Skinks somehow forgot they knew how to make or wield bows. All because at some point someone at GW read an article about South American blowpipes. To cite one of many examples.

 

[Slanputin]

That sounds like a "Pretty bad" vote!

Pfft, stop forcing bias!

 

[Caprasauridae]

The format of this poll makes it hard for me. I liked some of the rules, hated some. I liked some of the models, hated others. I haven't read the book but have seen shortened versions of the stories they entail, and they seem ok to me. I have never loved the WHFB lore. It's super generic at most parts. I think 40k has much much more original fluff. So to me, blowing stuff up and starting a new, hopefully with a bit more original things in there, is a good thing. So, for all this, I voted pretty good. If weren't for the Combined Armies of Ridiculousness, I would have given it an amazing rating, the kind where I push the shift button down hard while I write.

 

[Bainbow]

Like the chef:


...have no direct experience.

All I have is what I can see or read on the internet:

• Glottkin model is hideous.
• Khornate model of chariot / tank / howizter / motorcycle THING is saved from being hideous only by being ridiculous.
• Herohammer was what 5th[?] edition was notorious for, and it seems to have reared its ugly glorious head again.
• They had so much respect for their shoddily carefully crafted 3000+ years long backstory that they blew up the planet..??
• I really disliked the way Warhammer magic worked and it sounds like they created more and more of same.

My opinions on this.

-The Glottkin model is hideous, but this befits mighty champions of Nurgle very well. Have you seen his daemons, good God they are disgusting, and so are his champions. It fits.
-I can't really speak for that from a lack of experience with it.
-I would still say that infantry is more important than single heroes by a massive degree, but the heroes have certainly been buffed by a notable amount. I'd say it's semi-herohammer.
-This one does bug me a tad, I can't understand why people get upset over the plot actually advancing rather than remaining in a progressively dull and stagnant stasis where nothing ever happens. Backstory is fine yeah but it should serve as the base for the continuing story, which we finally have.
-The new magic functions rather similarly but differs in a few ways. There are far more spells and far more dice in the power pool, but it noticeably nerfed level 1 and 2 wizards while buffing level 3 and 4 wizards, which I like, it puts a greater divide between arcane masters and mild apprentices.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

This one does bug me a tad, I can't understand why people get upset over the plot actually advancing rather than remaining in a progressively dull and stagnant stasis where nothing ever happens. Backstory is fine yeah but it should serve as the base for the continuing story, which we finally have.

First off your definition of advancing seems to match my definition of ending. When you've killed off all your characters (okay a few lizards survived), resolved all your conflicts and eradicated your entire setting then that story is finished. Sure they will write up some new fluff for this next phase, but where you see a continuing story I just see a brand new one. I would have been completely okay with the advancing of the story line, but not to the point where they advanced it to its conclusion.

Now was the storyline a bit stagnant? Yes, it definitely was. A more progressive narrative would have been preferred, so long as it was implemented with a little more finesse an tact. That said, the stagnation never really bothered me all that much. I looked at it as a platform to advance the story myself and thus added another element to the hobby for me. The story that GW provided was a stage that I then used in conjunction with my own characters and ideas. In the end it isn't a huge issue, because I just ignore all the End Times stuff and continue using the previous setting as I always have. However, it does at the very least leave a sour taste in my mouth for the next edition. It will take something brilliant (rules + models) on the behalf 9th edition to get me to transition away from 8th. I just hope that there isn't more of this to look forward to...

If this is what "fantasy" looks like in 9th, then no thank you.

 

[Overlord of Serpents]

First off your definition of advancing seems to match my definition of ending. When you've killed off all your characters (okay a few lizards survived), resolved all your conflicts and eradicated your entire setting then that story is finished. Sure they will write up some new fluff for this next phase, but where you see a continuing story I just see a brand new one. I would have been completely okay with the advancing of the story line, but not to the point where they advanced it to its conclusion.

Now was the storyline a bit stagnant? Yes, it definitely was. A more progressive narrative would have been preferred, so long as it was implemented with a little more finesse an tact. That said, the stagnation never really bothered me all that much. I looked at it as a platform to advance the story myself and thus added another element to the hobby for me. The story that GW provided was a stage that I then used in conjunction with my own characters and ideas. In the end it isn't a huge issue, because I just ignore all the End Times stuff and continue using the previous setting as I always have. However, it does at the very least leave a sour taste in my mouth for the next edition. It will take something brilliant (rules + models) on the behalf 9th edition to get me to transition away from 8th. I just hope that there isn't more of this to look forward to...
View attachment 16645
If this is what "fantasy" looks like in 9th, then no thank you.

You're predicting the future here. We don't know what survived the End Times. We DO know for a fact now that something involving Sigmar and something involving the Lizardmen survived. Also Chaos will be back in all of their disgusting and terrifying ways. The transition was quite extreme, but WE DON'T KNOW what's coming. For all we know much of the original world may return or be hidden around as Easter eggs within the new world that is coming.

Also as a second point, the idea of 8th's stagnation acting as a platform to make their own stories is something I think most of not all of Warhammer players did, especially our community. But the thing is, we weren't selling anymore. Do you know how many books are out there to buy about Lizardmen fluff to enrich the lore? Three, one of which was total garbage and none of which actually focused on our race. The End Times were a huge success, regardless of how you may see them. Virtually every book sold out so fast that it was ludicrous because for the first time in forever the world was extremely excited about Warhammer Fantasy.

I know a lot of people who came into the came and were incredibly excited because of the End Times. Our player base swelled, which it quite frankly hasn't done in ages. The Old Guard don't matter anymore. They're irritating, whining, and disgruntled players who instead of enjoying a rich universe and following along an epic storyline, said it was all terrible and not worth looking at before they have the slightest clue what's going on. They cherry pick a model aesthetic they don't like or a particular passage from a certain End Times book and say, "See? I was right, this sucks cause I don't like it so nobody should like it and ugh 9th is going to be so bad they should just go back to 5th fluff."

I have a lot of new players in my area thanks to the End Times. People who are excited to learn the fluff and are buying models and books and falling in love with the Warhammer world. So screw the old stuff. I want a hobby that's vibrant and has a large, active player base who's providing money to the creators so we can continue to receive awesome new content regularly. Not a bunch of bratty old guard that gripe about ever new model, army book, or edition that has come out since I was a child.

The future will be awesome, and Warhammer will be as successful as it deserves to be. I hope everyone of us is there to enjoy the new world, but I quite frankly hope that all of the Old Guard go huddle in their caves and refuse to leave playing 8th so I don't have to deal with them worrying new players all the damn time.

 

[Sleboda]

I'm Old Guard.

I loved End Times.

I loved 3rd through 8th.

I want to love 9th (and 10th and...).

 

[pendrake]

People who are excited to learn the fluff and are buying models and books and falling in love with the Warhammer world. So screw the old stuff.

Which is it: "...screw the old stuff..." or be "...excited to learn the fluff..." ??

What point would there be in learning about a background story that has all been reduced to dust/swallowed in a warprift?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

You're predicting the future here. We don't know what survived the End Times.

The transition was quite extreme, but WE DON'T KNOW what's coming. For all we know much of the original world may return or be hidden around as Easter eggs within the new world that is coming.

Of course we can't predict what GW will decide to do. They could write anything they want, whether it makes logical sense or not. I wouldn't claim to know what GW will do in the future, especially when it comes to fluff since they have a long history of retconning their material. Speaking from the End Times material itself, the survivors are...

• A mysterious being, likely Sigmar
• An orb
• Some Lizardmen
• Chaos Gods
• Daemons of Chaos
• Perhaps a straggler or two in the chaos realm (I thought I heard something about Gotrek... could be wrong though)

They could choose to bring back any number of elements via the Orb and mysterious figure, but in my opinion if they use that mechanic to bring back most of the "stuff" they just destroyed it would be pretty lazy writing.

Do you know how many books are out there to buy about Lizardmen fluff to enrich the lore? Three

I believe there are a couple of reasons for that...

1. Lizardmen are not a top selling army
2. Lizardmen for the most part lack any real emotion, and emotion is the central underpinning that drives a novel

The End Times were a huge success, regardless of how you may see them. Virtually every book sold out so fast that it was ludicrous because for the first time in forever the world was extremely excited about Warhammer Fantasy.

I believe you greatly exaggerate how successful the End Times was. You are correct that the first couple of books sold out very quickly. That was due to initial excitement, limited numbers, and that the End Times started off pretty well with the return of Nagash. However, most stores only got a very few number of copies, so of course they sold out quickly. As the initial excitement ebbed, and the quality diminished, books started selling less and less. They were also produced in greater numbers so they became very easy to come by. I believe that the community was in reality quite split in terms of their thoughts on the End Times. Like you said, in your area it flourished, however in mine very few players got on board with it. Look at the numbers above, it tells the same tale. At the moment as I write this post, the numbers are slightly against the End Times. This may change over time, especially since it is based on such a small number of votes, but I've seen this same trend over and over again (both in forums and real life). The warhammer community as a whole seems very divided.

I know a lot of people who came into the came and were incredibly excited because of the End Times. Our player base swelled, which it quite frankly hasn't done in ages. The Old Guard don't matter anymore. They're irritating, whining, and disgruntled players who instead of enjoying a rich universe and following along an epic storyline, said it was all terrible and not worth looking at before they have the slightest clue what's going on. They cherry pick a model aesthetic they don't like or a particular passage from a certain End Times book and say, "See? I was right, this sucks cause I don't like it so nobody should like it and ugh 9th is going to be so bad they should just go back to 5th fluff."

Without being rude, this is not a valid argument. If somebody dislikes the End Times (and thus disagrees with your opinions/ideas) you label them as "whiny", "irritating", "disgruntled" and "old guard". First off, you've stopped defending your ideas on the subject matter and started attacking the people (rather than their arguments) that stand in opposition to your viewpoint . On the flip side of the coin, one could claim (not that I do) that those people that support the End Times fully are hopeless pathetic fan-boys who like to kiss GW's bum bum no matter what type of excrement is sent their way. HOWEVER, does any of this hold true in either case?... NO. Is this a valid way to discuss the topic?.... NO. Let's assume everyone constructs their ideas in a rational manner and are deserving of the right to formulate and express their own personal feelings on the matter. There are many things I like about GW and Warhammer (otherwise I wouldn't be here typing this message) but there are other things that I dislike and I hold no reservations on expressing that too. So let's keep the points based on the topic; I like (or dislike) A, B and C because of X, Y and Z. Please do not take this as a personal attack on you (nor am I claiming you have personally attacked me), but it's a slippery slope... one that is probably best avoided.

The future will be awesome, and Warhammer will be as successful as it deserves to be.

Who is predicting the future now? I hope it's good, but we can't really be sure.

 

[pendrake]

I'm Old Guard.

I loved End Times.

I loved 3rd through 8th.

I want to love 9th (and 10th and...).

I have seen some old maps where the elves hailed from some islands located about where the Bahamas are Bermuda is. Later maps have donut-shaped Ulthuan. I would like to know when that change happened.

Did they alter the world map in a massive way at the 3rd to 4th transistion?
Or at the 4th to 5th divide?
(It sounds like I am asking archaeology questions...)
I thought I remember reading that originally the elves were all one race (sea ? elves) and later split into the three due to civil wars and long separation.

Just wondering.

Sundering the world a little is an advance to the plotline. They could have kicked Morrslieb out of orbit and sent it hurtling toward the sun, dragged Lustria 100 leagues toward the South pole with a massive earthquake (leaving a sea-lane where there was an isthmus) and part of Ulthuan could have sunk leaving it more of a crescent...

...that kind of stuff is advancing the history. Changing things up. Maybe splitting the Chaos Dwarf deadlands with a rift / inlet of the sea would have been fun. Drive the Ogres East, they take over Cathay or parts of it, and get somewhat re-invented as a Ogre/Cathayan army.


...but the F&B folks presently at GW just obliterated it all. Obliterating the whole planet ends the plotline.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

...that kind of stuff is advancing the history. Changing things up. Maybe splitting the Chaos Dwarf deadlands with a rift / inlet of the sea would have been fun. Drive the Ogres East, they take over Cathay or parts of it, and get somewhat re-invented as a Ogre/Cathayan army.


...but the F&B folks presently at GW just obliterated it all. Obliterating the whole planet ends the plotline.

QFT

 

[Bainbow]

First off your definition of advaBncing seems to match my definition of ending. When you've killed off all your characters (okay a few lizards survived), resolved all your conflicts and eradicated your entire setting then that story is finished. Sure they will write up some new fluff for this next phase, but where you see a continuing story I just see a brand new one. I would have been completely okay with the advancing of the story line, but not to the point where they advanced it to its conclusion.

But they didn't conclude it because there are survivors, lots of them. The advertisements for Age of Sigmar all revolve around "what happens next, what happens next, we're teasing that a bunch of people survived." It outright says that the Lizards are alive, that the Undead are alive (woo Nagash, best villain,) and that Sigmar is alive. Think of how many characters we never saw die, but rather wait for the tide of Chaos to strike in the end. I'll put money on them surviving.

It's a continuation because the story is still going. Were it a conclusion, the result would not be "what happens next," it would be "that's the end, everybody go home while I polish this new power armour."

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

But they didn't conclude it because there are survivors, lots of them. The advertisements for Age of Sigmar all revolve around "what happens next, what happens next, we're teasing that a bunch of people survived." It outright says that the Lizards are alive, that the Undead are alive (woo Nagash, best villain,) and that Sigmar is alive. Think of how many characters we never saw die, but rather wait for the tide of Chaos to strike in the end. I'll put money on them surviving.

It's a continuation because the story is still going. Were it a conclusion, the result would not be "what happens next," it would be "that's the end, everybody go home while I polish this new power armour."

I'm aware that GW is playing it off as continuation of the story... but that fluff is dead and they will create new fluff to takes its place. Simply too much was destroyed of the old setting/characters. Chronologically it will continue where the last edition left off, but for all intents purposes it is a new story. It is true that many of the characters were not seen dying but the whole world was blown to smithereens. So either they are dead, or GW pulls some lame story mechanic out of their bag of tricks to explain why/how they survived. Personally I'm tired of their retconning, so I've accepted that the they simply killed off the fluff. If the current rumours carry any truth (and we should know soon enough), the new world will be very different... it's a new start, for better or worse.

Pendrake makes some great points in his post above. His post pretty much summarizes my thoughts on the matter. If you wish to view it as a natural advancement of the story, you're free to do so. I simply don't see it that way.