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7th Ed. PoShades vs Stegadon.

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Jungle Swarm

Kalandros

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Alright so the FAQ says

Q. Occasionally, a model with multiple parts that have
different Characteristics, such as a cavalry model, a
Character riding a Monster or a Chariot, will have to
take a Characteristic test (like an Initiative test for a Pit
of Shades spell). If the model has multiple values for the
Characteristic to be tested, which one is used?
A. Unless differently specified, use the best value, in other
words the value that makes it more likely to pass the test.

And there's the Main rulebook
page 61, paragraph 3 on the left column, Go read that!

Now, using the information at hand...

Each part of the Stegadon is individually Hit and each part has to test on the highest available initiative of the model.
So how do we deal with 1 crew missing the test and the rest all passing it? Do we just remove that one crew or the entire model?

It's a bit confusing.
 
In a recent tournament someone had pit of shades cast on thier engine of the gods. He took the inititive test with his skink priest (highest value) and failed. The entire model was then removed. I think this is the correct method as the highest inititive skink failed and so we must assume that the entire model and its riders were sucked into the pit. Atleast it was the judges opinion.
 
I do not have the BRB here at uni, but I'm pretty sure you just take 1 test for the model as a whole as it is the base that determines what the model is, so you couldn't have a situation where 1 skink failed and the rest passed. Yes this goes against what I suspect you are referring to in the BRB where things can hit every part of the model seperately such as cannonballs and such, but the FAQ seems to overrule that for characteristics tests.
 
ColdBlood666 said:
In a recent tournament someone had pit of shades cast on thier engine of the gods. He took the inititive test with his skink priest (highest value) and failed. The entire model was then removed. I think this is the correct method as the highest inititive skink failed and so we must assume that the entire model and its riders were sucked into the pit. Atleast it was the judges opinion.
Click to expand...

The real question is, did he first roll a 4+ partial to make sure the stegadon was hit with the spell? After they roll the 4+ to hit the steg, I say you did it just right. The whole stegadon works off of the highest Ld model, and it is an all or nothing deal. Common sense would indicate anything standing on the ground can be effected, so a beast and its handlers can be hit separately.. but not a beast and anything riding on top.
 
Caneghem said:
Common sense would indicate anything standing on the ground can be effected, so a beast and its handlers can be hit separately.. but not a beast and anything riding on top.
Click to expand...

Hmm bringing that kind of common sense into this discussion is somewhat dangerous. If we are assuming just the things on the ground can be effected and if they die then the whole model goes too, why would you use the skink's initiative not the stegadon's since it is the poor beast on the ground? And same for chariots, the riders aren't touching the ground, but they get even more complicated since the chariot is touching the ground (autofail) but so are the horses (have an initiative value).

The problem with common sense is it is just so damn rare. :P
 
Yea its a topic that could go all sorts of different ways I guess. But maybe if we look at it in another way maybe we can get a different perspective. If a lord on a dragon was targeted by pit of shades how would we work that out? would the lord take the test and if he failed would he and his dragon be removed? or maybe randomise which is hit first and then take the appropriate inititive test and then remove the appropriate model?
 
No, pit of shades only works against models that don't fly and since dragons fly they are immune. :D It would be rather weird if the rider was somehow sucked through the dragon into the ground.
 
If anyone bothered reading the spell, it does not exempt Flying models from falling in.
Also Template Spells clearly have a rule that ALL parts are hit, thus you take that many Initiative tests, there is no indication of taking only 1 test for 1 multi-part model.

So again: If any of the 'parts' fail that test, do you remove the entire Stegadon or just the part that missed? (Since we all know the statement "1 base = 1 model" is untrue in so many cases).
 
Kalandros said:
Alright so the FAQ says

Q. Occasionally, a model with multiple parts that have
different Characteristics, such as a cavalry model, a
Character riding a Monster or a Chariot, will have to
take a Characteristic test (like an Initiative test for a Pit
of Shades spell). If the model has multiple values for the
Characteristic to be tested, which one is used?
A. Unless differently specified, use the best value, in other
words the value that makes it more likely to pass the test.
Click to expand...

This is your indication that pit of shades doesn't follow the normal template rules hitting every part. I know templates normally hit the whole model. I was sure Pit of Shades doesn't affect fliers... But I cannot find the line anywhere, and the GW website is down so I can't check FAQs.

It cannot follow normal template weapons, because yes if the steg dies then all the riders (except characters) die too, this is in the rules for the steg. If every part had to test that would be extremely harsh. Thus why I suggested, based on the FAQ question that you posted, (and remember FAQs are meant to clarify rules so even though GW says they are kinda loose, they should override the BRB) that only 1 initiative test is taken and that test will be the best available as the answer in the question states. Sure it defies other parts of the rules, sure it defies logic, that is why it is still being debated.
 
Nowhere does it indicate that only 1 test is taken, it only speaks of what to do for a characteristic test when a model has multiple values but the Template rules for Monsters are clear, every part can be hit, the FAQ makes no mention of Pit of Shades being a single test for the multipart model.

Pit of Shades forces mutliple tests, so when a Dragon has to take its I test, it uses the Rider's I and the Rider uses his own I for his own test.

I really can't see any clear indication that Pit of Shades is a single test for a monstrous mount and its character, instead of 2 (and in the case of a Stegadon, more tests).
 
Huh, after rereading that FAQ response, it is pretty clear they are talking about something that is a single model with multiple parts. In the case of a stegadon or a ridden dragon, you would trigger a test for each model, since they can be independently killed.

For things like chariots, you can't kill off individuals riding the thing (except the case of a character riding a chariot). That's why it becomes all or nothing, using the highest Initiative "part" of the model.

And with regards to flying models being affected, the spell makes no mention of flying units. A dragon is just as vulnerable as anything else.

Common sense FTL.

Maybe it actually sucks things in instead of just counting on them falling...? That would make sense and explain how skinks in the howdah could be pulled into the vortex.
 
hmm.... nasty, this would also mean that if the Initiative 1 or 2 Steg fails then all his crew die too ( except character) even if they pass their independant tests as they can't exist without the Steg...

Moral is, don't let Stegs get hit with Pit of Shades!
 
@ Caneghem I couldn't find any single models that had multiple parts the only multiple parts are crew in every situation i have seen hydra, steg, rhinox if you could give an example it would help me see since i am probally just looking at it wrong
 
lupercal said:
@ Caneghem I couldn't find any single models that had multiple parts the only multiple parts are crew in every situation i have seen hydra, steg, rhinox if you could give an example it would help me see since i am probally just looking at it wrong
Click to expand...

Any chariot will typically have three stat lines.. one for the chariot, one for the steeds, and one for any crew on top. The crew and steeds pulling the chariot will have different initiatives, since they can all participate in combat. But there is only one thing that can be wounded, that being the chariot itself.

Another example would be a scar-vet riding a cold one. Two stat lines, but it is treated as a single model. The scar-vet has an initiative of 3 to the cold one's 2, so pit of shades would test at 3.

Oldblood on Carnosaur, on the other hand, would be treated as 2 separate models, each testing independently.

The Stegadon is a weird case, because a dead steg kills the crew along with it. But since the crew can be killed separately, I would say if the Stegadon passes his test, the crew would have to test as well.
 
apologies for necroing this thread, especially if it has been answered somewhere else since...

anyway, so is what we're saying: assuming a pit has been cast, as per the rules on pg61, because the template doesnt cover the whole model each part is only hit on a 4+? and then whichever parts are hit can take the test using the highest I of the model as a whole (i.e. even if the steg is hit, it can use skink I value?)
 
That's a tough one... though I'd like to say you could use the skink initiative, I would guess the stegadon tests at his own value. Maybe 8th edition will clear up the rules on this a bit better.
 
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