8th Ed. Power Dice Cap and Focused Rumination

[hd.40]

Q. Does the ‘free’ power dice gained from Focused Rumination count
against the power limit? (p43)
A. Yes.


I'm confused by this. Do they mean the 12 max power dice, or the maximum 6 you can use for casting?

 

[Caneghem]

Q. Does the ‘free’ power dice gained from Focused Rumination count
against the power limit? (p43)
A. Yes.


I'm confused by this. Do they mean the 12 max power dice, or the maximum 6 you can use for casting?

That's a good question. There is no way of knowing really. If I had to guess, I would say they mean you can't throw 6 dice at a spell and then add your free dice for 7 casting dice.

I don't think it relates to the 12 max pool dice, because the free power dice are never part of your pool, they simply attach to a spell as you cast it.

 

[hd.40]

Thats what I would assume too. Cause not all your casters get to use that dice.


But the way it's worded it seems to count towards your 12.

 

[Arli]

I agree with Caneghem. Because the discipline was chosen by the slann, no one else can benefit from the extra dice.

 

[walach]

afaik it only affects the maximum 6 to cast. as you say, the focused rumination dice never really enters the pool anyway.

if you check out warseer, i'm pretty sure this had been discussed in depth there. interestingly from what i saw most people seem to be in the camp that thinks the 12 dice cap is purely a cap on 'you can only have 12 dice in the pool at once', rather than 'you can only use 12 dice per phase'. i.e. the net effect on dice boosts like power stones, DE power of darkness and our own focused rumination is pretty much zero.

 

[Caneghem]

Actually I need to revise my opinion. I just looked in the rulebook again, and the 12 max pool dice is specifically called "power limit". So I think they are referring to the pool dice. However, it is very clear that you can't exceed 12 "at any given time". So really I can't see there being a problem unless you roll the maximum (or channel to the maximum) of 12 power pool dice. In this case, I am guessing your next spell on the Slann wouldn't get the benefit of the free power dice, although I still don't think the free dice are ever technically in the "pool".

Gets more confusing the longer I think of it.

 

[hd.40]

I checked out warseer, couldn't find anything decent. I prefer this forum for rules anyways.

 

[msinosic]

If you roll up 11 for the power pool you can use the extra dice.

if you roll up 12 for the power pool you can not use the extra dice for the first spell you cast but after you have cast a spell and thus reduced the pool from 12 to something else, you can then use the extra dice.

... So long as the power pool does not go above 12 ...

Avoid the issue by casting first with a Skink Priest or not rolling double 6s!

 

[hd.40]

If you roll up 11 for the power pool you can use the extra dice.

if you roll up 12 for the power pool you can not use the extra dice for the first spell you cast but after you have cast a spell and thus reduced the pool from 12 to something else, you can then use the extra dice.

... So long as the power pool does not go above 12 ...

Avoid the issue by casting first with a Skink Priest or not rolling double 6s!

Where'd you get this?

 

[Kurlin]

If you roll up 11 for the power pool you can use the extra dice.

if you roll up 12 for the power pool you can not use the extra dice for the first spell you cast but after you have cast a spell and thus reduced the pool from 12 to something else, you can then use the extra dice.

... So long as the power pool does not go above 12 ...

Avoid the issue by casting first with a Skink Priest or not rolling double 6s!

Where'd you get this?

Under Power Limit(pg. 30)

 

[msinosic]

It is my interpretation of the Power Limit rule in the Rulebook.

"The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase."
If the Slann is adding 1 dice to cast his spells from a pool that already has 12 then there would be 13. No no.

"This limit applies to all power dice, regardless of the source, and includes dice gained through the ... ,special abilities and so on."
The Slanns ability in question is a special ability so he would not be able to use it if it makes the pool exceed 12.

Of course you might want to argue that when he takes dice from the pool prior to casting that those dice in your hand have left the pool... yeah.. no thanks.

 

[strewart]

Yep I read it to mean if you cast with the Slann and have got 12 dice in your pool, he doesn't get the free one for that spell.

I think he could still use the free one to technically cast a spell with 7 dice (if you really wanted to die..) since power stones can take you above the maximum for a spell as well can't they? But they are another example of if you have 12 in the pool, you can't use a stone until you have used some of the dice in the pool already.

 

[Chicken Basket]

Tonight I played an old friend and quality player against his Tomb Kings. We have the 8th rulebook and came to the same question about how the rule is effected by the Slann's Focus of Rumination. His point was that for no reason can the pool exceed 12 dice used to cast for all spells in that turn by any items or abilities. I've not found a reason our "free" power dice would be any different than say a Dark Elf's magic boost or the Lore of Death Power dice rule essentially keeping us capped at 12 dice total including ones that we choose as "free". As much as I would love to be the only caster with the ability to use 14-15 power dice I just don't see it as following the written rules. If anyone can show some solid evidence behind why we should get to break this rule then I welcome it with open arms.

As a side note this is how we played the rule which worked out for both sides and still proved to be an extremely effective ability for my Slann to use. Only a max of 12 dice can be used over the course of the Magic phase by all of my casters combined. Generally the winds of magic would grant me between 6 and 8 "natural" power dice. From this pool I would add a "free" dice (in terms of not generating it from the winds of magic, but still counting towards total power dice used in the magic phase) and keep track of how many I had used in total that turn. I see this rule applying because it balanced out to around 12 dice used total anyway, however I earned a huge advantage over my opponents dispel because he would only receive around 3-4 while I still managed to use 10-11. I'm still holding out hope that our frogs will prove to be the ultimate masters of magic, but at this time I think we need to take a look at our army's from another perspective and play the devils advocate looking at another viewpoint instead of trying to bend rules that will influence how others play the game.

I'm fairly new the forums and openly welcome criticisms and comments.
P.s. - I won the 2,000 point battle by a fairly large margin having 5 fully intact units after turn 6!

Happy Gaming,
-Chicken Basket.

 

[strewart]

I don't think its twisting the rules at all really, at any one time no one can go above 12 dice but if you have things to get you extra dice or whatever, they can be used. As long as instantaneously you don't go above 12. I will check the exact wording when I get home but I'm pretty sure that it isn't intended that you can only use 12 dice over your entire phase, just that you can't have more than 12 at ay given time.

 

[Caneghem]

The rule has nothing to do with only using 12 power dice over the course of a phase. It is just about having 12 pool dice at a maximum. So for example you have lore of death and cast the purple sun spell. After casting the spell, you have 5 dice left in your pool. The template travels right through a couple units, and causes lots of wounds and you roll up and additional 9 power dice using the Lore of Death attribute. Your pool can now be boosted to its max of 12, with 2 of the earned dice being wasted. (5+9 = 14 goes to 12)

 

[Skrox]

The rule was carefully written to make it clear you CAN use more than 12 dice in a phase, just not have more than 12 in the pool at a time. I actually wish they had made it a 12 dice per phase cap, because some of the combos to get more dice back will make dual slann lists absolutely disgustingly over powered.

Fear the Frog.

 

[Chicken Basket]

So now this free dice applies to not only use more than 12 power dice, but also to cast using 7 dice instead of the maximum of 6? It sounds like were really taking some liberties with this "free" line that seem to break every rule instead of following them. Also I was under the impression that things like the lore of death ability (magical ability) or power stones (items) couldn't grant you over 12 power dice either. I just find these rules unjustified as of yet and overpowered in actual play so I'm more or less just seeking an answer from a knowledgeable source. It's a shame the FAQ didn't outright answer this to begin with though.

 

[Kurlin]

So now this free dice applies to not only use more than 12 power dice, but also to cast using 7 dice instead of the maximum of 6? It sounds like were really taking some liberties with this "free" line that seem to break every rule instead of following them. Also I was under the impression that things like the lore of death ability (magical ability) or power stones (items) couldn't grant you over 12 power dice either. I just find these rules unjustified as of yet and overpowered in actual play so I'm more or less just seeking an answer from a knowledgeable source. It's a shame the FAQ didn't outright answer this to begin with though.

No I do not believe you can use more than 6 dice to cast any spell, no matter whether it is free dice or not. I do not think Caneghem was saying or implying that, he was just showing an example of where you had 5 dice left after a spell, not necessarily after using 7 to cast that spell.

But the 12 cap on dice in your pool is not a cap on the number of dice you can use in a turn. It is very straight forward in my eyes that abilities or items can refill this pool, but never make the pool go above 12. Yes this may make the Slann one of the more powerful mages, but you know what he is supposed to be.

 

[strewart]

He was probably replying to me. I claimed it could allow a Slann to cast with 7 dice, not Canegham. Want proof?

Lizardmen army book, page 43, under Disciplines of the Ancients, in the focused rumination section:

This ... can cause the Mage Priest to roll more dice than normally allowed.

They really cannot spell it out more simply than that, there is no way an FAQ is needed. A Slann may grab 6 dice from the pool, and add his extra free dice, to cast with 7 overall.

Lets get back to the 12 dice maximum.

The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase

Ok, I guess I can see how this can be viewed either way. Maybe we should all send letters to GW so when they release an FAQ of the main rulebook it will be addressed. I still lean toward the most popular opinion and the interpretation I have seen almost everywhere on the net; at no point during the phase can the dice go above 12. This does not mean you can't use more than 12 during a phase, it just means at any one point in a phase you cannot have more than 12. Items that boost your pool (HE banner of sorcery, adds d3 power dice at the start of the magic phase) will not be able to be used if they take the total above 12. Items that happen instantaneously (power stones and the Slann power) are fine at any point as long as it doesn't take the total above 12, so they are basically fair game if you have less than 12 in your pool.

 

[Kurlin]

He was probably replying to me. I claimed it could allow a Slann to cast with 7 dice, not Canegham. Want proof?

Lizardmen army book, page 43, under Disciplines of the Ancients, in the focused rumination section:

This ... can cause the Mage Priest to roll more dice than normally allowed.

They really cannot spell it out more simply than that, there is no way an FAQ is needed. A Slann may grab 6 dice from the pool, and add his extra free dice, to cast with 7 overall.

Goes to show you I shouldn't always comment on stuff without a book nearby with my memory I didn't go back far enough in the comments to see your comment strewart, I figured it was one of the comments between Chicken Baskets posts.