8th Ed. Questions from a noob: Part 6 - new questions

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 2

it generates steam points. It can then allocate points to create it's charge distance (it doesn't role 2d6 to charge, but goes 3" per steam point)
Each steam points spent on the charge generates d3 impact hits at str 6 (I think), so in theory spend 5 steam points, each d3 = up to 15 impact hits

As you say, a lot of dice!
I'm not an empire player though, so someone correct me if I've got anything backwards!

 

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 4 - new questions

1) with respect to movement, lone units can just pivot how they want, they don't need to wheel. When charging, they can only charge in their front arc (as every unit, even skirmishers) and then they have one 90 degree wheel to get into BSB. No unit in the game other than random movement units can charge anything that is not in their front arc (I believe)

2) you can declare against the fleeing unit, they then flee 2d6 again and you can either test to redirect or complete the charge against them, if you roll sufficiently high enough to get to their new position, they are destroyed.

3) bith get flaming attacks

4) no

5) distributed as shooting so cannot be aimed at a character. If it happens during the combat phase (such as egg of quango, not sure about arc of Sotek as I don't have my book on me) then it counts towards combat res.

6) no

7) you can only make way if you are no already in base to base with an enemy, so if you were engaged to the front and flank, you could not move your character out of the front rank to fight a weaker unit on your flank. However if you are only engaged to the flank, you could make way to the flank, then if the character is no longer in base to base with an enemy you could reform him back to the front rank

 

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 4 - new questions

" lone models and movement"

Page 27 BRB

 

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 4 - new questions

ON question 5, when a character is in a rank and file unit and the special attack is distributed as shooting, then the character can avoid being hit if the number of rank and file models and other models is greater than the number of hits. This is because the controlling player of the unit hit gets to allocate hits and allocaties hits one to each model in the unit until all models have been hit once. In other words, if the number of hits is less than the number of models in the unit, the controlling player can choose which models get hit and each model can be hit only once. This is discussed on page 99 of the BRB and it takes a couple of times reading and thinking about it to get it right. If the character would ordinarily take a hit (because the number of shots is sufficient to hit all the rank and file models at least once such that the character would have to take a hit) but is in a unit with at least 5 rank and file models of the same troop type, then one of the rank and file models can take the hit with a successful look out sir roll of 2+. If the character is not of the same troop type, then no look our sir roll is allowed.

There are times under the rules on page 99 of the BRB when a character might be allocated a hit from a special attack distributed as shooting (or from a normal shooting attack in the shooting phase or magic missile or certain direct damage hits in the magic phase) prematurely for strategic reasons. This can occur when a charactrer has multiple wounds remaining and is unlikely to die due to late in the game or ability to recover lost wounds or due to the character being able to likely to avoid an unsaved wound due to an armour save or ward save. Having the charactrer or characters take hits distributed as shooting might effectively reduce the number of hits on the rank and file models in the unit and potenitally will save the rank and file unit from being destroyed or depleted as quickly. For example, suppose you have five rank and files models and two multiwound characters in a unit and the opposing model has a thunderstomp on the unit and rolls a 6 for 5 strength 5 hits and it is late in the game. Your rank and file models are T3 and have no save left, so each will suffer a wound 5/6 of the time. Under that scenario, youi might choose to not take a look out sir test for either character and to allocation one hit to one character or choose to even allocate one hit to each character and have the remaining 4 hits allocated to the unit. If the characters have wards aaves and/or armour saves and multiple wounds, they can avoid being wounded and if wounded will not die and give up points. On the other hand, the rank and file models will likely all die if they take 6 S5 hits and you will give up VPs for the rank and file unit when you lose the last model in the unit. This is a tactic one might use at the end of the game (turn 6) from a shooting attacks or when it is in the bottom of turn 6 to keep a unit from being destroyed. It is also a tactic used if the characters and remaining models in the unit are likely to kill the monster in the next round of combat before the monster will get to hit back such that you can afford to take some hits in order to get another round of attacks in and finish off the monster.

On some other previously addressed issues: page 22 of the BRB is very clear that a unit that declares a charge cannot use its charge move to move into contact with an enemy it has not declared a charge against. IT can occur that a unit is charged, flees behind another unit such that the chsarging unit cannot catch it and either the charging unit does not redirect the charge ot the intervening unit or fails the LD test to redirect to the intervening unit and that constitutes a failed charge. The failed charge unit moves froward the greatest of the D6 rolled but stops 1" from any intervening unit. You cannot use a charge move to charge into an enemy unit "by accidpent" like you can with an overrun move or with a random (compulsory move). If a unit flees from a charge and flees through a friendly unit it does not take any damgerous terrain test but the friendly unit, unless immune to panic tests, must take a panice test to a avoid fleeing as well (page 63 of BRB). If a unit flees through an enemy unit, then every model in the unit that passes through the enemy unit must take a dangerous terrain test. This came up in two rounds in a tournament I was playing and was used to my disadvantage (I failed the redirect LD test and could not charge the intervening unit as expected.).

 

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 4 - new questions

Olderplayer:

I believe you have understood the rules on page 99 slightly wrong.

You do not allocate shooting attack IF the character is the same troop type and there are 5 or more rank and file troops.


You ONLY choose to allocate if there are either 5 or less rank and file troops or the character is of a different troop type.

Also your talk of look out sirs is misleading and will confuse people. You only take LOok out sir tests on template attacks , any other shooting, non template Magic, thunderstomped e.t.c do not grant look out sirs.

Furthermore your example of 5 rank and file and 2 character taking 6 thunderstomped and allocating onto the character for save reasons is wrong.

If there are five rank and file troops and the characters are the same troop type then all 6 thunderstomped MUST go on the 5 troops, this is clearly stated in the first paragraph under the shooting heading on page 99.
You could only allocate these stomps onto your characters if there were only 4 or less rank and file or if the characters are a different troop type. Even though there are more thunderstomped than troops in your example. So those tactical reasons for doing this are actually incorrect and wrong with respect to the rules.


So if you had a unit of 10 saurus and one slann, it was hit 15 times by archers, all 15 shots are resolved against saurus, because there are 5 rank and file and the slann is also infantry. Even tho there are more hits than saurus.

However if it was 10 saurus and one cold one mounted scar vet. It there 15 shots, because the scar vet is a different troop type, then at least one and possibly two shots must be resolved against the higher toughness of the scar vet

 

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 4 - new questions

Not sure if this is what's this thread was/is designed for but I'm going to ask my own question as I've just started playing lizardmen so I believe I fall under the noob category.

Can a slann cast magic missiles whilst in combat because of his palanquin? I don't know if you could in the old book but my local gw store staff seem to think you could but I can't find anything in the book about it.

 

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 4 - new questions

Thanks Rhodium Sometimes one understands the issue in general but misses a detail and it does not come out quite right in print. You are quite right on the look out sir not being required when 5 or more rank and file of same type as the character (or champion) are in unit and the allocation of hits issue does not arise when the characters are of the same troop type as the unit and there are 5 or more R&F models in the unit. I was thinking in terms of models of different type (which is what occurred in one of my recent cases) when that is the exception and not the norm. My example should have clarified if the characters were of a different troop type or been given with 4 or less R&F models where one is hit with a shooting attack to avoid confusion. BTW multiple stomps, breath weapons used in close combat, and thunderstomp are hits on the target unit and like impact hits would appear to generally fall under the hits distributed as shooting rules per the BRB (pp. 42 and 99) except when in a challenge (in which case they can only hit the model in the challenge per the FAQ).

On the magic missile question, the general rule is on page 31 of the rule book (BRB). Magic missiles cannot be cast at enemy units in combat and cannot be cast if the wizard (or his unit) is in t combat. Thus, even though the Slann is in the second rank, he ordinarly cannot cast at magic missile while his unit is in combat (even if he is not in combat). However, uinder the Arcane Vassal special rule, a Slann may use any skink priest in the Lizardmen army within 24" of the Slann to cast magic missiles and direct damage spells using the line of sight and forward arc of the skink priest even if the Slann is in a unit in combat. That is on page 36 of the new Lizardman rule book. But, if the Slann miscasts while casting through the skink priest such a spell, the skink priest takes a S3 hit and the Slann resolves the usual miscast consequnces.

The ruiles are different for direct damage spells. In sort of a contradictory loophole, a direct damage spell following the general rules for spells on page 31 of the BRB, may only target an enemy unit not in combat and within the forward arc and range of the Slann even if the Slann or his unit may be in combat (with a different enemy unit than the target of the spell). and even if the Slann does not have line of sight to the targetted unit.

 

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 5 - new questions

1. Random movement (p. 74 BRB) requires a move based on the number rolled on the dice. The only way to stop movement is to have something in the way that the model cannot move through or into. I believe you can choose to not move at all (before throwing the dice) even though the random move is in the compulsory move phase but maybe someone else can find something in an FAQ on this.

2. If not charging, single models can pivot multiple times but especially at the beinning and end of the movement phase in the remaining moves phase. (BRB p. 27) This is not allowed during random movement (pivot on spot but not pivot or wheeling while moving) and when charging (one wheel and only one wheel is allowed).

3. The rear or a flanking unit in close combat (or BtB) is allowed to "press forward" to maintain base to base contact if at all possible as the enemy unit shrinks (p. 61 BRB) and can attack across incomplete ranks (p. 49).

4. Organ guns are kind of unique because they do not roll to hit and do not suffer the skirmisher and cover penalities to hit. It is likely this will be "fixed" in the new dwarf book reportedly coming out in January or February next year but may give the organ gum more shots to roll to hit, like Empire's Hellblaster Volley Gun. However, for now, you have to either be willing to hope your unit is not destroyed or the organ gun misfires or rolls low on the artillery dice. and your unit does not panic if it takes casualties. One solution is to have two smaller units because the organ gun can only take out one unit or to go large enough that the unit surives.

 

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 5 - new questions

I think spells as well as shooting are resolved against the warmachines toughness. thats how we have been playing it. i dont see any other way
that means that a comes does have a hard time to wipe out a war machine.

 

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 5 - new questions

You need to look up (i would but work and no BRB at hand) whether the spell's hits are distributed as for shooting attacks - and i am quite certain they are. If they are, you CAN indeed hide behind the cannon. On that note, the cannon is bigger than the troops and metal, hence i actually think it makes ence for it to be hit!

 

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 5 - new questions

I never mentioned it making sense, i only mentioned the Chain lightning thingy making sense.

On the other argument, i'm not gonna "sincerely" think about any rules in a real-world logical fashion, since i couldn't care less about what makes sense, if the rules state something else. In this case - the easiest way of handling the rules is by going by shooting, as magic would otherwise be OP at taking down warmachines, that to me is more logical than having to apply real world physics to a fake world problem. So yes i am arguing for that - and i will now proceed to prove my point.


page 36 of the BRB "Many spells inflict hits or wounds on your enemies - you can find out how to resolve these on page 40 of the Shooting Phase." (this is a bit misguiding, as page 40 is where the to hit rules start, and most spells have already hit at the point they have a succesful cast)

Page 40 of the BRB and onwards - the quote is from Automatic hits, page 41 "Some unusual attacks (most commonly those made by magic missile spells - see page 31) hit automatically. Where this is the case, it is exactly how it sounds - do not roll for the attack, it instead automatically causes the number of hits stated with the wording"

- This should confirm that hits are resolved as for shooting attacks. Now we follow the normal rules for wounding and the likes. It is quite clear to me that Magic hit as if using shooting attacks as that is where the reference is found - thusly it would go against the toughness of the Warmachine unless otherwise stated, since it is a "shooting" attack. Same logic applies to the Comet, as it is "some spell" that causes "automatic hits"

again - Page 42 quoting "resolving unusual attacks" - "There are several circumstances in Warhammer that call upon you to inflict hits upon an enemy - spells being and obvious example (the fireball spell causes d6 str 4 hits on an enemy unit), as well as things like impact hits made by a charging chariot (covered in special rules chapter). Such hits are resolved at step 4, 5 and 6 of the rules for shooting attacks.

The only exceptions are hits caused by close combat attacks - these are discussed in the close combat chapter (page 46)."


There you go - that argument should be good enough to support my claim :3

Spells -> shooting -> Warmachines toughness - Logical game play construction, illogical real life construction in some cases.

EDIT - the FAQ on the subject

"Q: When hits, other than from shooting and close combat attacks, are
inflicted upon a unit how are these hits resolved? (p42)
A: As per the ‘Resolving Unusual Attacks’ box. Note that all
hits resolved in this way will count as shooting attacks for
working out who is hit."

and why impact hits go against toughness of the warmachine as well

"Q: Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as
Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks? (p42)
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed
as a shooting attack."

Thankyou for the question, i learned a lot as well

 

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 5 - new questions

Fate of bjuna actually stops sooner.

Page 108 - "the crew" I don't wanna quote much more, but it says they can't be affected separately from their machine - Fate of bjuna goes on the warmachine, and it takes the crew as wounds