8th Ed. Razordons or Salamanders?

[Pepticsalve]

Which ones (if any) do you prefer, and why? I'm looking at the next units I'll be painting for the escalation league I'm involved in - already decided on some chameleon skinks and more saurus warriors, but I'd also like some monsters with handlers. Razordons look a better choice on paper - but which do you guys run in competitive lists (if any?)

 

[Dyvim Tvar]

Salamanders are better by far.


Razordons average 5 shots that need to roll to hit, but against a 20mm-based infantry block a flame template can hit 20+ models

Salamanders aren't so good against things like monstrous infantry, but then neither are Razordons. And Salamanders are so much better against 20mm infantry it justifies the greater points cost.

 

[n810]

Most people go with Salamanders,
since they are good against blocks of infantry,
(large number of small bases)
but Razordons are a bit underated,
especialy if you take a large unit of them,
razordons are better against smaller units.
(less base, or large bases)

 

[Pepticsalve]

Interesting opinions - thanks! What about running both units? Looking carefully at the rules I do actually like the look of both units - what draws me to the razordons is that they are a ranged attack unit in an army without a lot of ranged units, and 18" isn't too shabby. Boosting their BS with magic could make them a pretty formidable unit - a bit like a more mobile repeater bolt thrower... But then salamanders look pretty awesome, and devastating as well! Maybe I'll get some of each.......

 

[Scalenex]

Interesting opinions - thanks! What about running both units?

I like to use them in tandem. Salamanders do more raw damage to big blocks, but they are pretty vulnerable against enemy chaff units. Razordons excel at killing enemy chaff units.

 

[Pepticsalve]

Interesting opinions - thanks! What about running both units?

I like to use them in tandem. Salamanders do more raw damage to big blocks, but they are pretty vulnerable against enemy chaff units. Razordons excel at killing enemy chaff units.

Thanks Scalenex. What sort of unit sizes do you tend to run with, and do you find extra handlers are worth it? I suppose having the extra skink per monster guarantees that one bad misfire result rolling a 5 or 6 won't prove quite so disasterous...

 

[Pinktaco]

I will refrain from spouting my nonsense about razordons.

Instead I'll just post this.



I hate you razordon.

 

[n810]

Idealy at least one extra handler per unit.
(a unit could be like 3 salamanders)

 

[Darkneo89]

Sorry if I bother all of you with this little off topic question but... Do the handlers attack in the combat phase? Me and my playmates did't find a solution reading the rulebooks...

 

[n810]

yea it's a skink with a hand weapon (ohhh scary)

 

[Scalenex]

Interesting opinions - thanks! What about running both units?

I like to use them in tandem. Salamanders do more raw damage to big blocks, but they are pretty vulnerable against enemy chaff units. Razordons excel at killing enemy chaff units.

Thanks Scalenex. What sort of unit sizes do you tend to run with, and do you find extra handlers are worth it? I suppose having the extra skink per monster guarantees that one bad misfire result rolling a 5 or 6 won't prove quite so disasterous...

Salamanders work fine in groups of one to three. If you are taking two in your list, you are generally better off taking two singles rather than one pair, that way you can send one up both flanks and get more chances to cause panic tests. In a grand army I fielded three packs once and it was glorious.

I usually field Razordons in a pair or a trio (sadly I only own three altogether). My early experiencing fielding solo Razordon have not gone well. They need to use the buddy system or they can't seriously threaten much at all.

One guy in my area owns many Razordons. When fielded in units of 4-6 Razordon can stand alone (and have better things to do than babysit Salamanders) and threaten just about anything. When fielding large packs, I advise taking High Magic so you can Hand of Glory their BS up.

The smaller the pack of warbeasts is, the more important extra handlers are. I always take an extra handler when running a solo Salamander That means you are guaranteed to whether through your first misfire. Razordons are slightly more likely to misfire (they usually get more shots off thanks to stand and shoot) so I usually take an extra handler in my Razordon packs. I add extra handlers to my larger Salamander packs points permitting.

 

[VampTeddy]

Salamanders work fine in groups of one to three. If you are taking two in your list, you are generally better off taking two singles rather than one pair, that way you can send one up both flanks and get more chances to cause panic tests. In a grand army I fielded three packs once and it was glorious.

Actually i disagree somewhat, now off-course the question was directed at you, but i find that taking 2 in one unit maximizes damage, makes over or undershooting less of a risk, and gets more handlers to avoid my 80 pt investment starts to guard the dead skinks (that it likely just ate).

I also feel that a unit of 2 will do quite a lot more damage when it comes to Toughness 4 / as 4 units, of which there are at least 2, as one will usually only really panic such units.

And finally a worthwhile mention - Ranged attack saturation. I feel a unit of two takes more ranged hits before it gives up it's points and it's location on the battlefield, quickly making your dual single flanking sally, into a single flanking sally. Odds are people will target it, more means more protection, though it also could mean panic at losing 1 model which, at ld 5, could be bad, but 12 inches is actually quite a long way!

Just my 2 cents.

That said, single sallies ARE also a great way to field them, i'm just more inclined to put more into that one basket, int his particular case

 

[Madrck]

For me lately I've been using high magic, so 2 is better then 1 when you, move 6" WBW 20"=profit
It works and it's scary as hell. Big block of Witch elves getting you down, not anymore.
Find it hard to get that perfect shot, throw 6 dice at it. Jobs done!

Let's not forget Metal magic can fix up your razordons shooting as well.

 

[Pepticsalve]

This is really interesting reading all of this. I'm sort of torn between what to do... I might just get one of each and try running them both for a few games just to get a feel for their value on the battlefield - though as has been pointed out a single monster in a unit isn't all that effective...

I have to say I love the idea of having 4 or 5 razordons in a unit, hand of glorying them - hoping to roll a 5 or 6 on their BS upgrade and letting the good times roll! Though having said that strength 4 attacks still aren't amazing - but for annoying low toughness infantry blocks could still be pretty spectacular!

How do they cope in combat? Their strength is pretty high, and two attacks looks potent. Shame about the WS being low (but again, fixable with magic)...

 

[Dinomokk]

How do people play units of more than one rank of razordons? I'm thinking about running 6 with a high mage for Hand of glory and Harmonic convergence from Tetto'eko, but I'm uncertain about how to play them. How do you count handlers? Do you assign 3 handlers per Razor, and then keep track of who loses what, or do you say that "6 Razordons has 18 handlers, and won't do any tests until they are all dead"? It makes quite a difference!

Also, would you say that all 18 handlers get to attack in close combat even though only one Razordon is engaged in Close combat, or would you limit it to 3 (4 if you go with extra) handlers per razordon in base contact.

The way I plan on playing it is that the handlers are considered as a pool across all the models, and that only 3 get to attack from each razor. I'm curious though to hear how you guys are doing it

 

[Madrck]

Thankfully GW is perfectly clear on these rules..... There arn't any!!!
None that are concrete or make any sense.
As long as a single handler remains that won't need to take a monster reaction check. That part is clear enough.

It's been a while since I poured over their rules but 3x2 is fine for firing purposes but you will only get 1 attack from the supporting razors as only MI gets the monstrous support(3 attacks) special rule.
On the plus side you do have swiftstride, but your a skirmisher so no ranks for you.

You can make an easy argument for all 18 attacking, they are supporting attacks so 1 attack per model. That that is all skinks have anyway just makes you feel a little dirtier about it. It is still only a ws2str3 attack.
This is also one of the best arguments I've seen for taking swarm bases as it gives them all poison.

Don't forget that ALL wounds on a razor are randomized to a handler on a 5+, not just shooting or magic.
Happy hunting

 

[LTERALUS]

Which ones (if any) do you prefer, and why? I'm looking at the next units I'll be painting for the escalation league I'm involved in - already decided on some chameleon skinks and more saurus warriors, but I'd also like some monsters with handlers. Razordons look a better choice on paper - but which do you guys run in competitive lists (if any?)

I like to run a unit of both. Now with DE and WE players running fast cav armies, razordons become a lot more useful. A single salamanders can only cause 5 hits to a unit of 5 fast cav, whereas a razor can wipe that unit out entirely. But razors do little against large units compared to salamanders.
Hope that helps

 

[Kaleidoscope]

The problem is cost in dollars. They cost as much as a rhino apc for 40k ($35 at the time of writing) for a single razordon/salamander. The benefit is you get 3 free skinks in the kit but still.. that's steep.

I'd recommend, if I could only buy 1-2 models, that you spring for Salamanders first. You really shouldn't take a pack of more than two and I recommend 2 separate packs of one salamander. This fills your salamander slots as you can't take more than two of anything in rare.

Salamanders are great for clearing out hordes and you would find the most use for your money from them, especially if you don't take any big combat blocks to take out other blocked infantry.

If you have ~$240 laying around to buy 6 razor dons, you could do this also. I took 6 razor dons to the Sunflower GT recently and they performed very well. However, this is a much more expensive unit and you kind of have to build your list around them. Alternatively, if you're looking to max your chaff 2 solo razor dons only sets you back 130 points if you want to combine them with the 2 solo salamanders.

Solo hunting packs, regardless of species, need to have an extra handler. Large packs can get away with just the base amount.

Pro-tip, set your handler models off to the side, glue shields on them and get a free skirmisher unit with javelins from all of your hunting packs. Handlers don't need to be set up behind the hunting packs as they aren't actually on the table. Just mark 'handlers' with a small dice as they get eaten. This is the only way to manage a large pack of 6 razor dons.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I took 6 razor dons to the Sunflower GT recently and they performed very well. However, this is a much more expensive unit and you kind of have to build your list around them.

Epic... that is the exact sized unit I want to experiment with. What type of duties did they perform for you? What were their highlights at the GT?

 

[Kaleidoscope]

Epic... that is the exact sized unit I want to experiment with. What type of duties did they perform for you? What were their highlights at the GT?

I'm uploading the battle reports now and I'm 3 games in to the 5 game GT.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-EMqIP0oOVaPsi-a1hL72g?view_as=subscriber

Well, spoiler alert, I played at the top table in the final round and had a super close game versus the guy that went on to win best overall. I was 4 battle points from the best general spot which is what I was going for. So while I didn't "win a GT" with the unit it wasn't like I totally bombed it either. This is also considering its been months since I last played warhammer. The unit can work.

First, the cons. They can't flee and I built a list around fleeing so maybe they weren't the best fit. They would have been perfect marching up alongside a big unit of temple guard or something that they could support with shooting AND in combat.

I also felt like I spent too many dice each turn casting hand of glory and walk between worlds to leverage the unit. I felt like have BS 4-6 was the only way for the unit to make its points back (which it isn't) and I should have been casting spells as usual and then cast hand of glory with my last dice. It kind of threw off my high magic curve because I wasn't swapping out hand of glory yet I cast it nearly every turn.

The pros. No one understood what they did so they caught some players off guard (how many shots!?). The handler rules are something you MUST memorize and be prepared to argue. Not because your opponents are jerks, it's just "too good to be true" sounding. I mean, you deflect cannonballs with handlers which is nuts.

Str 5 attacks and stomps. They were a great combat unit against weaker units and they were the only way for me to clear out buildings (which they did).

Game 1: Lizardmen. They helped take down a ripper dactyl unit and fired ineffectually at chameleons the rest of the game. Not the most damage but they forced my opponent to maneuver around them which probably saved my slann.

Game 2: Wood Elves. They blew away a unit of ambushing glade riders, most of a unit of wild riders, charged into a building and killing 10 glade guards in two turns to take the building, and then they killed a LVL 4 and the last sister of the thorn hiding behind the building.

Game 3: Dark Elves. They blow away most of a unit of warlocks with a LVL 4 inserted and then, due to poor placement, they are charged by a hydra, are defeated, are outside of General/bsb, flee and run off the table. Bad me.

Game 4: Beastmen. They assist me to pick off several chariots. I feel like I needed to put them in combat rather than just shoot away the whole game.

Game 5: Empire. They killed like one knight before a 12" overrun takes karl franz into them. They kill a couple in close combat but are then chased off. Bad me.

They are definitely a finesse unit and require practice. I think they go best on a flank and would certainly hold it down for you. If you want to use hand of glory on them it isn't required but it makes their shooting much better.