7th Ed. Razordons Worth It!

"Case in point, last night I played a game versus WoC"

Well, don't expect any panic there. They get to reroll all panic checks. Also, let's see whether str 3 -3 AS hits are more likely to kill chaos warriors than str 4 hits.

Assuming T4, chaos armor + shield
10 hits of each
10 str 3 -3 = 1/3 wound * 5/6 fail armor = 5/18 (10) = 2.78
10 str 4 -1 = 1/2 wound * 1/2 fail armor = 1/4 (10) = 2.5

So yes, while str 3 isn't great, salamanders are more likely to kill T4 heavy armored stuff (2.8% more per hit). An interesting follow up calculation though, is T4 with 4+ armor vs. shooting (most dwarves). Sallies and razordons are dead even. It's just a question of "do you want panic with that?" Reduce the armor to 5+, and razordons start to pull ahead by a good bit (3.33 to 4.17). However at that point, skink javelins and blowpipes start to look pretty good as well. Less armored units tend to get shredded by our mass poison attacks.

"Now, would Razors have been better in the same game? Maybe, maybe not. I believe they would have done a little better in one sense simply becuase they had the higher ST needed to wound."

Quite likely you thought sallies were supposed to be a whole lot better than razordons, but really when the hits are even the advantage is slight. In theory, a single salamander should be able to land more hits against a block than a razordon, maybe you had some bad artillery dice rolls.

The above math assumes equal hits, but consider that on average a single razordon will put out 5 shots and score 2.5 hits. Does a salamander template score more or less than 2.5 hits (average)? It's hard to tell, since it is based on your skill at lining up shots and how the artillery dice gods favor you. But even if the front edge of the template barely clips the front rank you'll probably get 4 partials converting to 2 hits. This is on a bad shot, not an average shot. I'm sure someone could figure out what you will average at different distances but I'm not going to bother, suffice it to say that my experience is you will usually land more than 2.5 hits with that template if it more than grazes a unit.

So in the final analysis, salamanders will typically score more hits (debateable), and more of those hits will wound (statistics) T4 infantry with better than 4+ armor. At 4+ armor and T4, it is a statistical dead heat for wounds, just have to see who does more hits. 5+ or worse armor, razordons are clearly favored for wounding purposes. Daemons of Chaos anyone?

For the panic issue, while rerolling on Ld9 makes panic unlikely, it still happens 1/36 times. You can't count on it happening just like you can't count on a dwarf blowing up his Anvil of Doom (though you get more than one shot per turn). Compared to the ~0 times it will happen for Razordons. If you are running two salamanders individually and on the flanks, and spewing fire across the enemy line, you could conceivably cause 2 panic checks with each of them. Typically a key unit failing a panic check and running the length of the line (since you should be firing from the flank) will be a non-trivial event, though not necessarily game-winning.

Also, when you factor in armies that can't reroll panic (which are most others), your odds skyrocket. Imagine this... you move your sallie so that he is parallel with the enemy line and you fly in some terradons (over US 5) and land them adjacent to the enemy unit at the other end of the line. If that salamander causes even one panic with its template, the enemy will flee the length of his line and be destroyed by terradons. Also, every enemy unit along the way will take a panic test and if they fail they will flee in the same direction and be auto-destroyed along with the first unit. Don't forget that any units within 6" of the destroyed units will test as well, assuming they haven't already taken a panic check that phase.

Typically panic checks can only be caused by things that can inflict mass casualties, like warmachines or big spellcasters. Other sources of panic include things being broken from combat etc. But in all of those other cases, the direction of the panic is a secondary concern because you don't want to risk your big warmachine being unprotected or putting your mage in a bad spot, and the broken enemies thing is pretty well based on your opponent's setup.

Then along come salamanders, which can target the direction of panic like aiming a rifle, due to their relatively low cost and ability to move 6" and fire. If you and your opponent follow the rules exactly, then you can draw a line from the center of your salamander model through the center of the panicked unit and that is your direction of panic. What matters is not which way the fire comes from, but where the center of that salamander is. So you don't even have to shoot the exact direction you want them to panic, just make sure you move the sallie to the correct location in the movement phase.

Then we have Terradons as well, for even more directed-panic goodness. We're not entirely sure yet what GW will rule on the direction of drop rocks panic, but I think it will be away from the final location of the terradons. This would mean just land the terradons on the opposite side of where you want to "aim" the panicked unit. Their options are not as many, because they must target weaker units which won't all that likely be still US5 when they do run away. But me personally, I'm thinking I will aim the crippled unit so that it flees in front of a big nasty unit and disrupt enemy movement that way. If it rallies and isn't fast cav, it is stuck there along with the enemy unit!

Apologies for the text-wall, hopefully I made the points I needed to without coming across as insulting.

 

No, you weren't insulting at all. And I can see your point. In some ways, we seem to agree. Your math was solid, but I would only argue that you will not get 10 shots with the flame template that often. I would say 5 is closer to average.

Against the WoC - he never had to reroll panic. He made his LD9 check every single time. Yes, the reroll might have been useful, had he actually failed it. I would then say I did make a unit panic. But as it stands, they have failed to panic anyone. Perhaps they will have better luck in the future. Again, I see low LD armies hating the sallies. I just think if you are expecting panic as the effect, I would not hold your breath. It's nice when it happens, though! That's a good point about the terradons. I often use that tactic with my undead. Create 5-10 zombies behind a unit, autobreak them in combat, they flee into the zombie wall and die.


Plus as I pointed out, I think the stand and shoot option does provide some additional options to the razors. You are correct though. Against highly armored folk, especially TO3 humans, the sallies win out. But that's why I believe it very mcuh depends on your opponent. I would not declare either is better than the other, because it will depend on your opponent's army. But I definitely see where the sallies are a very useful unit to have!

 

Well Ith I am a long term Tourny player Been playing in tournaments for almost 16 or so years....
And I can tell you neither of those replies is correct....

Ask a good long term tourny player what makes a unit good they will reply a good unit is a unit that can garner points succesfully without giving any back to its opponent.

And in those terms the Salamander pound for pound is far better then the Razordon.

Players in general will take a unit cause it looks good or because it kills stuff....

GOOD (and I emphasize the word good) tourny players will take units that serve a specific purpose they run their lists like a well oiled machine there is no fat and not one unit will have a ? over its purpose or rely on the opponent to fufill its purpose.

If I was facing a lizardman army full of razordons I would be quite happy I would simply ignore them I wouldnt charge them nor would I waste shooting on them I would just ignore them... Wait for them to charge me then butcher them.

I am a good successful long term tournament player and I am telling you Razordons are not as good as salamanders.

 

Nos against any player worth anything you wont get the stand and shoot option..... why charge them with their horrible range your going to have to venture either away from your main line with march moves hence becoming vunrable to close range shooting or be charged by something that couldnt give a damn about your stand and shoot... Ie Dryads.

I stand by my original analysis of razordons that they are a gimmick unit and rarely will any good generals take them over the salamanders. (I must admit on paper they seem prettty good but after 3 games using them I quickly came to realisation they just arent that useful.)

 

I agree, it is the intangible things that you can't really place a point value on that need to influence your unit choices. What will this unit force my enemy to do to compensate, and how will that improve my position? How does it effect the flow of the game? Pyschological warfare is important as well (which is part of why I like the BoR so much, but that's another topic). Sometimes it is not what a unit kills, but what your enemy thinks it can, or what the thing has the potential for killing. Organ Gun is a great example of something the enemy must assume the worst will happen if they go near it, but that isn't necessarily the reality. Similarly, the blade of realities will make even the Ld10 models sweat. 1/13 chance to die instantly per hit is not great odds of killing... but what model do you think makes the guy sweat and influences his movement?

In light of all this, Salamanders are A LOT better than the statistical calculations indicate. They have a degree of usefulness you'd expect from 2 different units. Flaming, armor busting, panic checks (aimable)!? The amount of goodness they pack into an 80 point unit is unbelievable. It's a dwarf flame cannon that's 60 points cheaper and mobile, just losing a couple points of strength. Folks, enjoy running two of them alone with an extra handler while you can, I'm guessing you aussies will take a comp hit for that in future. After terradons, they are quickly becoming one of my "must have" unit choices for any sort of generalized tourney list.

As to razordons... they would occupy the spots my sallies use. And they just don't make the cut.

If you are gearing your list for fighting Daemons, then you would probably do alright taking razordons because the Daemons negate the advantages (mostly) of sallies with their lack of armor and ItP. They will be hesitant to charge the razors, so you should be able to just shoot and destroy. Their range isn't great but their mobility is a lot better than most shooting, so they should be able to get shots off most turns. That said, I'd still feel comfortable at a tournament going against Daemons with sallies and toasting large numbers of T3 troops with the flame template.

Depending on the GW ruling on stand and shoot, razordons may not even be worth taking vs. Daemons. One misfire cancelling the other shot would make an already sub-optimal choice even worse.

 

sart i find you amusing,
you wont take cor as they might be stupid for a turn but will take sallies on the chance they might cause someone else to take a panic test
also. you arnt the only tourny player on here,
and even if you were,
we are discussing the relative strengths of each model,
not how rubbish one is,

 

Ilnar do you even read my posts? I listed the strengths and weaknesses of both units.... Way to showcase failure buddy....

Secondly A failed stupidity test is a negative effect a possible panic check is a positive effect....
Pretty simple really dont even need maths to figure that one out....

If your a tourny player I would love to hit you in a tournament I would be smelling a 20-0 victory quick smart.



Glad you find me amusing I dont find you amusing in the least. If your going to aruge at least construct a decent arguement backed by facts or practical experience ie see Caneghem for pointers how to do this he is fantastic. Dont waste my time trying to bait me by misqouting me and responding to posts you dont even read.

Like I said way to showcase failure.

 

i have read you posts and have already said they are incomplete and dont list all the facts,
ive never been to an aus tourny but i have played in many tournys here (uk) including the GT where i rack up more wins than losses each year. an acceptable result by anyones standards.
your attatude smacks of "im right and everyone else is wrong and stupid "

a pity realy
a nice site but as i said, i think i'll go elsewhere

 

Oh give all this "I'm a good long term tourney player" crap a rest. It annoys me for three reasons

1) It's the internet, you can say anything you like about yourself.

2) You should rely on the strength of your arguments alone, if they are solid, then you wouldn't need to back it up with all this "I've been a tourney player for x amount of years"

3) It annoys other members. This is a debate, who cares who is right or wrong (is there even a right or wrong?)

This is a friendly site for chatting about something we have a common interest for, not bickering

 

... I'm a tourny player to! I don't know about much stuff like math hammer anyway.

Well I think it is like this:
Razordons are
1. Good at shooting much much more than sallies.
2. scare factor for newer players
3. They shred wood elves.
__________________________________
They are however
1. good at eating skinks
2. very bad at long distance shooting.
3. not a big threat
4. just as durable as two skinks

Sallies are
1. Good against regen and flammable units
2. good against large blocks of infantry
3. a bigger threat than razordons
______________________________________________
They are however
1. just as durable as two skinks
2. their range is random, VERY random
3. They don't like T4+


My 2cents

 

Have to agree with Sammy. You make some good points, clearly you are a decent player, but you need to relax a bit and stop trying to force your ideas down peoples throats and flaming them when they have a different opinion. You may have been a tournie player for 20 years, and your gaming group may think you are god, but here you are a new member just like everyone else trying things out with a new book just like everyone else, and on a forum respect is earned through valuable and well thought out posts that do NOT attack other members and their personality.

You're starting from scratch just like everyone else new here, and if you're arrogant complexion cannot handle the thought that some people may have ideas that differ to you then perhaps you should just return to your gaming group. How you portray yourself makes a big difference and frankly, how you are doing it now is more derogatory than anything else regardless of whether your points are good or not. Now don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of your points and think you have some great insights, but if you don't express them in a friendly manner and at least consider other peoples opinions, I don't want to hear it. You've made far too many posts without something like this being said. Clearly, if you are driving other members away from the board then you are NOT behaving in a way you should be in this kind of friendly community.

So basically, get down off your high horse to us mere mortals and discuss things to earn your respect on the board rather than constantly telling everyone how good you are and putting them down, or stop posting.

And ilnar, I can definitely see your reasons but I hope you reconsider. Surely you know the whole forum doesn't have the same attitude and not everyone you come across will be friendly. If you do decide to go, I wish you well with your army.

 

why do you think razors are bad at long ranges they don't get a panalty

 

They shoot 12" away.. with moving counted with it it's 'sort of' 18".. They don't get penalties from moving and long range tho... But still i think Skink Skirmishers could do the same job for less, Razordons are not 'Unique' in the army like Salamanders are.. They just shoot some stuff wich any type of skink is able too aswell. I think i'd even rather pick 6 Chameleons over a Razordon..

I geuss it's just like everything else in the game.. a matter of what you prefer.. I like chocolate ice.. and you like vanilla ice.

 

long ranges for me are 30"... Now that I play lizardmen it's a different story, but still they are not good at long distance shooting since they shoot 12" and move 6".

 

Um how am I trying to Cram my opinion down anyones throat??
Ilnar is the guy telling me I am not listing points good and bad of both units when I am.....

He attacked me firast claiming he finds me amusing (condecending?? very much so)
So dont have a go at me when I respond in kind.

I dont have a group of players that think I am a god I have a couple of countries that know for a fact I am a very good player and can hold my own with the best. (I havnt had a swim in a little pond in a looong time)

I am not so Stupid as to belive my opinions are the best I do belive I have the right to air them as much as everyone else.

So please step of your high horse and look at the fuill picture.

Now back on topic now that the crucify sart mob has moved on.

Good Points Pika one issue tho.
Wood elves are actually fantastic at shuting down the Razordons. They can screen the vunreble troops with Skirmishing Dryads (Who can charge them without fear of getting mowed down) and can wipe out a full unit of x3 with a round of shooting * hail of doom + 2x Units of glade guard at close range and you will have to come within close range range to shoot)

Even tho you can move and shoot.... Your range is still 12 inches. Problem is you need to move within 12 inches to actually shoot and every army out there has units that can and will make mince meat of you at 12 inches. and a smart general will ensure he is going to have that unit ready beat em.

As I said before (Please people read MY FREAKING POST!!)
Point for point the Slamander can gather almost triple is points cost in 1 shooting phase wearahs to even begin to manage to have that points ganering potential you need to take x3 razordons at x2 the cost of the single salamander......

Again I dont even begin to comprehend why there is even a discussion about what one is better.

 

Oh and Sammy I am not just saying Im a good player go to the IF website and look at the Official Australian and NZ rankings from a year ago. I have proven recorded results to back up my claims.

And I only bring up my credentials when people try and question my experience.

 

Wow this forum certainly does bring around some heated debates.

I only use salamanders, and normally only 1, I don't see the role of those units as damage dealers, the lizardmen army has plenty of damage dealing units.

Razordons excel when shooting things like fast cav/skirmishers/lone characters
They do this really well, but you probably need 3 to do it consistently. Thats 225 pts tied down in one unit that can't flee from most charges, making them very easy to tie down. Also, the razordons doesn't really add anything to the army. Skinks are very good at dealing with fast cav and lone characters, so is the engine and the magic missiles, and they also laugh at skirmishers.

Salamanders has a bit more uses as I see it, they might not hurt fast cav or skirmishers that much, but those units are often on the flanks, where the salamander belongs, away from leadership. The great selling point of the salamander i think is the ability to also be a cheap redirecter, salamanders, with the ability to flee has more potential in diverting enemies. Lastly, the salamander really can hurt units that the blowpipes, javeling, giant bows cant, blocks.

None of the units is all that good in my book, definatly not bad, but on a scale of 1-10, 1 being useless, 10 being something you can't leave home without.

Razordons 4/10
Salamanders 7/10

Mathias

 

I agree whole heartedly with all of your Points Mathias.
Well said.

 

Sart I don't care how good you are and neither does anyone else. Social skills and community are what matter on this site, so either fix your attitude or don't even bother coming back to this forum

 

What the hell is your problem mate??

I dont give to flying craps who thinks I am good I am proud of the fact I have done well in the tournament scene and its my right to boast about it or use it as an example to hammer home my points.

You and a couple of others are the unsocial biggots.. I dont fit your perfect idea of what a gamer is so you threaten to boot me off the site??

Wow simply unbelivable talk about lacking social skills or any form of social grace.

And your a mod??

Awesome......community..... I think I know what the chinese and Russians felt like while under Mao and Stalin way to go.....