1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Tutorial Realmshaper Engine Guide.

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by LizardWizard, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    9,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Even if you put it exactly 6" away from the edge that balista covers at least 48" from that edge. That should be more than enough to be able to cover something important unless the entire battle literally just takes place on the other side of the battlefield (in which case your opponent is kind of an idiot for claiming it). Even with the "short" attack he'd still cover at least 30" from that edge which should be enough to provide covering fire for an objective or chokepoint or two... And that's assuming you stick it exactly 6" away from the edge, if you put it in a halfway decent position it'l definitly cover something of value with both attacks.

    It might not be the greatest of advantages, but it doesn't really have much of a disadvantage either. Assuming you have something with decent range there's very little reason not to garisson unless your opponent is turtling on the other side of the board. And that's assuming you place it in a terrible position. Assuming the RSE is placed in a "decent" position there's virtually no reason to garisson it if you get the chance.

    General downsides to all faction terrain, like an opponent potentially using it, would be interesting. I especially dislike the stuff like the Idoneth's boat, which doesn't just benefit nearby Idoneth, but also punishes nearby enemies. Thus making it pointless to controll for the opponent. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    However, I would say that every piece of faction terrain needs to at least start out under the appropriate faction's control. Fighting over it so you use it against the original faction is great. But potentially giving it to the opponent from the very start like our RSE feels rather bad.

    Which does give me an idea. What if an opponent had to break into the RSE if no seraphon have garissoned it yet and the doors are still "closed"? Waste a turn or 2 in combat breaking down the doors? That way at least there's some definitive cost to the opponent without having to rely on forced external choices like the arcane terrain swap, or having to put it in a far away corner to diminish it's value.
     
  2. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,381
    Likes Received:
    2,773
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's the point. Just a minor inconveniece, that will barely affect the game result. And we still can trick our opponent into unfavorable position, depending on the battleplan or terrain. In the end, it is only a ballista - Kroak can nuke it with MW in one phase with some luck.

    Yeah, same with Bone Nexus. If you place it in your territory, you get the bonus, if you place it in opponet's, they get the debuff.
     
    Judge dread (Saurian) likes this.
  3. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    9,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It might not be super major, but it still feels rather bad to give it to an opponent without any real, inherent, trade-off. And as for tricking an opponent into an unfavorable position, the advantages & disadvantages of the position are too obvious, so I doubt you're going to do much tricking. I mean, any opponent who's going to be "tricked" into garissoning a building 50" away from any objectives is kind of an idiot. It seems too obvious when it's a trap. So meh.

    As for Kroak. Wasting an entire round on blowing up a balista (plus whatever turns needed to get in range...) seems like a worthwhile trade-off for a single balasta.

    Anyway, I doubt many opponents are going to use an RSE to win the game. But always putting it in a corner out of harms way so your opponent can't take advantage of it and we might get one or two rounds of its special ability just feels rather sad.


    Yeah, at least stuff like the mawpot has the potential to deny an enemy acces to it. So it's worth fighting over. But too many of the faction specific terrains are just undeniable bonusses to their faction, or mallusses to their opponents.
     
    Judge dread (Saurian) and Nart like this.
  4. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,381
    Likes Received:
    2,773
    Trophy Points:
    113
    But isn't this kind of what we want? If the opponent doesn't fall to a trap, then he doesn't garrison RSE. Win-win.

    Not always. Only when your opponent can take real advantage, which seems to be quite rare. I still don't know, how good is the idea to take RSE to tournaments, but in friendly games it is almost always worth it, even in competitive ones.
     
  5. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,286
    Likes Received:
    9,443
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think it is very worth taking. It might always be on the table, but when you want it you really want it.
     
    Judge dread (Saurian) and Nart like this.
  6. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,286
    Likes Received:
    9,443
    Trophy Points:
    113
    3d6" charges from the Starseer also make it a lot more viable to get 20x or more Skink into 1" Range.
     
    Judge dread (Saurian) likes this.
  7. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    9,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If the opponent doesn't take it because it's an obvious trap than you probably don't really want it either...


    In what situations would your opponent be willing to completly forgo control of it though if it's in a halfway decent position and not just in a corner of the board? I mean yeah sure, if you're facing a full melee army and the RSE is just out of range to control an objective he might not necesarly want to go sit in it. But he's sure as hell isn't going to let you put your starpriest & skinks in it either to rain attacks upon the objectives that are in range. So he's still going to contest it. I mean yeah, he might not have any real advantage from a random RSE in this case, but neither do you.

    And yeah, this is "worth it" from a tactical point of view cuz it allows you to force his hand. But it's not exactly an exciting & fun mechanic, nor are you exactly taking advantage of the RSE specifically. Any other random piece of terrain could potentially achieve that as long as it provides some potential bonus worth fighting over...
     
    Judge dread (Saurian) likes this.
  8. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,286
    Likes Received:
    9,443
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The RSE is rather usable. It isn't automatically obvious what is its most optimal placement. However, it far from bad. Even if you do nothing but put it in a deployment zone you can expect to benefit from it 50% of the time. Most enemy armies won't benefit greatly from it even if they can garrison it. Bound endless spell make them dangerous for your opponents MinSU and Support Heroes.

    If you are just playing casual games using the GHB and not at an organized event then the RSE becomes even more useful. There are a number of ways you can place your remaining terrain after the RSE to gain advantages.
     
    Judge dread (Saurian) and Nart like this.
  9. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    9,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A special faction thing being (potentially) usefull 50% of the time is kind of sad, for obvious reasons.

    Both of these "advantages" rely on outside factors. And in the case of hitting squishy support heroes, or worse, multiple units garissoning it so your endless spells can hit them with ease, you're relying on your opponent activly making mistakes to take advantage off.
    As for the terrain, all you care about in this context is that it allows you to force your opponent to choose between giving you advantage A or B.It doesn't really matter that the RSE is advantage B, it's mostly that choice you're interested in.

    Neither of those really speak to the RSE being "good". I mean you could just replace it with any other piece of faction terrain, give it the same placement pre-requisite & you'd have the exact same thing, but better. As at least other faction terrain can't be activly used by an enemy (ignoring mirror matches), they can only deny you acces. Plus, other factions don't need to spend an entire turn climbing into their terrain to use it (another somewhat awkward prerequisite only we seem to have). And don't get me started on the potential of nuking multiple garissoned units. Any opponent stupid enough to put multiple squishy units in a garisson when facing something like Kroak with a bunch of endless spells has it coming :p

    Don't get me wrong, I understand why you like it. The strategic value of forcing an extra choice is always usefull. But the actual effects of the RSE seem to be more or less irrelevant for it's potential "uses". Which is just kind of sad.
     
    Judge dread (Saurian) likes this.
  10. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,286
    Likes Received:
    9,443
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Lots of great faction abilities have a 50% or less chance of executing. Most good spells go off on a 7+ to cast. Fyreslayers ignore damage on a 4+, ect. AoS is a game about compounding your own advantages and your opponent's disadvantages. Everything that is strong in this game requires "outside factors".

    Also, Power Unleashed in amazing. Like, almost broken when we manage to get it. So, I would rather a piece of terrain that requires some thoughtful play to use and is absolutely amazing 50% of the time versus a mindlessly placed and then forgotten by both players piece of faction terrain.
     
    Judge dread (Saurian) and Nart like this.
  11. Grotpunter
    Troglodon

    Grotpunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    1,037
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Dont you feel like the ability is kind of whatever if we dont have access to it from turn 1? If we cant deploy a Wizard/Priest inside, it feels kind of meh since it takes multiple turns to garrison it and use the ability once the game has begun.

    In general (not aimed at you @LizardWizard) we are way past the point of moaning about the RSE. It is what it is. It wont change for a long time, so might as well try to get the best out of it. If you dont want to bother, just dont bring it.
     
  12. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,286
    Likes Received:
    9,443
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I was speaking in terms of if you have placed the RSE into a deployment and won the roll off to pick sides. Overly simplified, each turn you aren't in control is an effective lose of 20%. That is the case for all things though. Each turn you fail to cast a bound endless spell ect.
     
    Judge dread (Saurian) and Nart like this.
  13. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,381
    Likes Received:
    2,773
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yeah, no arguing here. But my point is that in 50% of time you will get full advantage of it and it is 100% worth it, because Power Unleashed is a very strong ability. And other 50% times you are not hurt by it that much.

    Yes, it is absolutely not fun, when your opponent takes advantage of it and you have no ability to use, but, at least, it was worth trying. Things unlikely will go too bad for us even if we lose a roll. I like Arcane Ruins trick very much. We just have to make sure to put RSE and AR 18" apart and get a win-win situation, for example. I just wanted to say, that RSE isn't nearly as bad as we thought it to be. It could be even OP, especially on double turn, if we could always control it.

    However, I'd still prefere less powerful rule, but more consistent access to it. Like it triggered on 4+/5+/6+ instead of 2+/4+/6+, but we could place them in our territory. We by it to use it by ourselves, not by our opponents.
     
  14. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,286
    Likes Received:
    9,443
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Agreed. Getting a good double turn with Endless Spell, Power Unleashed, and Lord Kroak on the table will be devastating.
     
    Judge dread (Saurian) and Nart like this.
  15. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    9,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes but those are 50% on a per instance basis. Not 50% chance per game....

    No, not everything requires outside factors to function. Yeah, a buffed up horde of saurus warriors is better than an unbuffed unit, but an unbuffed unit
    doesn't immeadiatly become worthless.

    Which is kind of the case here. So far the only sort of reliable suggestion I've seen with the RSE is forcing the choice between giving you an arcane terrain piece or the RSE. The whole point is that choice, and for a choice you obviously need at least 2 things. The RSE on it's own is a terrain piece that you'l immeadiatly lose acces to in 50% of the games you play with it. And that's ignoring the fact that in certain games it'l end up stuck in a corner of the battlefield so you can't use it anyway cuz you'd waste too much time getting in it (and/or can't afford to sacrifice your starpriest's buffs for it). That's a huge chunk of games in which it doesn't really contribute, and on top of that in at least some games in which it's outright detrimental, to the seraphon player. The RSE is the only model (or mechanic) I can think of that is that bad on its own.

    I'd much rather have something decent that I don't immeadiatly lose control over 50% of the time (and is outright detrimental on occasion). I don't like feast & famine design that makes something either awefull or amazing...

    Though I do at least appreciate the attempt of putting in some sort of risk/reward. Too many faction terrain pieces are purely a benefit for their army, regardless of if they control it or not, and don't encourage an enemy to try and take it from them.

    Unfortunatly for me I care more about it being fun than if it's good or not :p
     
    Judge dread (Saurian) and Nart like this.
  16. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,286
    Likes Received:
    9,443
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If nothing else. Seraphon players should be practiced at getting the most out of the RSE as a simple result of playing games with it. The majority of opponents aren't going to enter the battle with a game plan for your RSE. Unless Seraphon are taking top tables. At which point who cares, we are top tables. That alone feels like a pretty good benefit from the RSE.

    We control where a major piece of terrain is placed. It is generically garrisonable, but only Seraphon can use the Power Unleashed ability. Most of our armies will naturally want to take things that any garrisoned unit would be weak too. Such as bound Endless Spell, hordes, and offensive damage spells. We may or not get to use Power Unleashed, but the enemy will likely divert at least one unit to prevent us from Garrisoning. Basically we stand to gain significant advantage and risk very little.

    It is sad that we can't rely on and map a list/strategy around our only new model. It is however very viable. And I look forward to shooting lasers at the enemy every chance I get :D
     
  17. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    9,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    meh it's viable, just not necesarly very fun. Most of what makes it viable seems to have little to do with the actual direct benefits of the RSE itself and more with the meta-benefits of having an aditional factor your opponent needs to play around and how this will affect his strategy (and yours..).

    I'd be curious to know how often Power Unleashed ends up being used in an average game, and how often it even gets garissoned (both by the seraphon player and in general).
     
  18. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,286
    Likes Received:
    9,443
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Fun is subjective. Shooting pieces of terrain seems pretty fun to me.
     
  19. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    9,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    O sure, I just fear you won't get to shoot a whole lot of terrain :p I'm curious how much you'l manage though at an actual tournament.
     
  20. Grotpunter
    Troglodon

    Grotpunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    1,037
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Well you could make an arguement that “people can just move off terrain”, which is true, but that also means you potentially deny your opponent stuff like arcane, faction terrain such as Khorne altar etc. Between Power Unleashed and Comet’s Call etc., squishy support heroes/wizards arent long for this world.
     

Share This Page