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AoS Realmshaper Engine - Let's Crack It!

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by RandomTsar, Mar 22, 2020.

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Do you think the Realmshaper Engine is Better Served as a Defnesive Feature or Offensive one?

  1. Defensive

    6 vote(s)
    15.0%
  2. Offensive

    4 vote(s)
    10.0%
  3. Somewhere In between/Situational

    30 vote(s)
    75.0%
  1. Carnikang
    Carnasaur

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    Page 2 of the Core rules dictates how armies are Setup. It specifically calls out Battleplans handling the setup specifics. These are more specific than core rules, and trump them. Units would not be able to garrison within the RSE if it is within the specified parameters of the specific battleplan. Which is generally "Cannot deploy within x" of an enemy territory".
    Therefor, you cannot deploy a unit in the RSE, even if it is within your territory, if said RSE is within the specified range of the enemy territoy.
     
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  2. RandomTsar
    Saurus

    RandomTsar Active Member

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    I can see your point but it doesn't really say it in a forceful way that says it supersedes all other rules. Alas though I still think this means it's up to a 'higher power' to decide.

    As closer placement could help and hinder both players I don't see how it would be unfair. And sense deployment is a back and fourth thing there would be an opportunity to avoid/maneuver around it.
     
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  3. ThePhilosopherX
    Saurus

    ThePhilosopherX Active Member

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    I think that the RSE could be used in DT or shadowstrike starhost (or really anytime, but especially there) to screw with your opponent’s deployment. You place it in a deployment zone as to maximise annoyance for deployment. This would work especially well in battle for the pass or duality of death, where you could zone out large chunks of deployment area. Then, if they give that side to you, you get a nice RSE in your deployment zone to work with. If they take that side, they’ve got to deal with deploying around the terrain feature. When you have shadowstrike starhost or DT, you can put some or most of your stuff in reserve and not care about the lack of deployment room, whereas they will most likely have to deploy their whole army around the RSE, hampering their deployment.
     
  4. Carnikang
    Carnasaur

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean? It specifically echoes page 11, which states that the Battleplan defines the deployment of armies. Look at the Example battleplan on the next page. It says under SETUP:
    Meaning, if your RSE is deployed in your territory (remember, it is deployed before sides are chosen, so there is a good chance it might not), and is within the example's 12" of the enemy territory, you cannot deploy in it. As no unit can be deployed within 12" of the enemy territory.
     
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  5. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    More specific rules on warscrolls and in battletomes do supersede the more general rules in the GHB and such.

    However, in this case it doesn't matter as there isn't any real conflict.

    The battleplan specifies a distance, the warscroll says you can be setup in garisson. Since the warscroll doesn't say "you can set up in garison as long as you are X" away from the enemy" these two rules just combine into "set up 12" away from the enemy, possibly in garisson if applicable" in the case of a battleplan that says "minimum of 12" distances from the enemy"
     
  6. Carnikang
    Carnasaur

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    That is what I am getting at. Yes.
     
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  7. Slikus Vaw
    Cold One

    Slikus Vaw Active Member

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    can we LoSaT out of the RSE? im not sure we can cause it ses that a "unit thats on the battlefield...." and with garrison rules they arent on the battlefield

    edit: nvm as we LoSaT at the end of movement so it doesnt matter
     
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  8. RandomTsar
    Saurus

    RandomTsar Active Member

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    Oops. Yeah that makes sense. That was the train of thought I had before but I guess I just got hopefully ignorant... xD
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
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  9. RandomTsar
    Saurus

    RandomTsar Active Member

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    Hey, everyone, I feel like this thread has stalled a bit people seem to be just going encircles in the discussion trying to add something new just for it to have been mentioned before (including me! haha).

    So in order to help push the discussion here's a FAQ and a new topic to start chatting about.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    FAQ:

    Q: LoST & the RE:
    A: You cannot teleport into a garrison, and teleporting out is done by leaving the garrison, then LoST the unit (LoST happens at the end of the movement, you must move out during if you want to LoST the unit).

    Q: Can I bring more than 1?
    A: Nope, Battletome dictates 1 per army.

    Q: Can I choose not to place it?
    A: Nope, battletome dictates if you have 1, you must place it.

    Q: Auto garrisoning and territory?
    A: Even if the RE is wholly in your territory you must still adhere to any restrictions of the battleplan in terms of spacing from the opponent. ie battle plan says set up 9" away, RE is 6" away, you may not auto garrison it on set up.

    From Designers commentary:
    Q: Can enemy units garrison a Realmshaper Engine?
    A: Yes.

    Q: Can I cast endless spells with a friendly Seraphon Wizard that is garrisoned in a Realmshaper Engine?
    A: Yes.

    Q: If the answer to the above is yes, what happens if that endless spell is a Balewind Vortex?
    A: The Balewind Vortex model is set up within 1" of the Realmshaper Engine and more than 3" from any enemy models. The caster is then removed from the garrison and placed on top of the Balewind Vortex model.

    Am I missing something? Please let me know!


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


    New Focus, lets talk about a specific Battle Plan, "Knife to the Heart" Let's abbreviate it to 'KttH'.

    KttH.png

    I see 4 general locations:

    KttF:A
    The center of the board, Mostly using it as LoS Blocking & movement hurdle between the two objectives. I wouldn't plan on getting to use the MW ability but potentially forces a fight away from the objectives for more mobile troops to take them.
    KttH-A.png
    -----

    KttF:B
    Catty-corner to the objectives. Which side doesn't really matter, as much as the relative position to objectives. This gives us the most flexibility for snipping/using our spell caster. It will do the same thing for armies with heavy range, assuming they bring squads small enough to fit in it. Otherwise, for CC armies it's in a pretty awkward position even for support heroes.
    KttH-B.png
    -----

    KttF:C
    In front of the objective. This makes a kill zone for whoever gets it on the objective. I would say this position is a bad idea unless you are feeling very lucky. (Prove me wrong, tell me why it is good!)
    KttH-C.png
    -----

    KttF: D
    Behind the objective. Makes the same kill zone, but would make us farther away from the action, and other terrain this is probably the worst place to put it regardless of army composition. (Prove me wrong, tell me why it is good!)
    KttH-D.png
    -----

    My idea for responses is something like:

    Battle Plan:
    Placement Location:
    Good for:
    and/or
    Bad for:

    ----
    Sample, but still real views up for discussion:

    Battle Plan: KttF
    Placement Location: B
    Good for:
    A small contingent of magic, a lone slann or oracle hiding in it will get us the MW and also allow them to still do their magic shenanigans. I would probably not dedicate other support heroes to them.
    I would say it would be better for Starborne then Coalesced due to the higher maneuverability that LoST allows us.

    and/or
    Bad for:
    Opponents with small units of elite snipers. They'll get to do with it exactly what we want to. (some SCE lists, limited knowledge here, what others?)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  10. Grotpunter
    Troglodon

    Grotpunter Well-Known Member

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    @RandomTsar

    So I think the position really depends on your army list and what your plan is with it.

    A is interesting to me if I wanted to screen off heroes from long range stuff like OBR Crawlers, but I think it isnt good enough.
    B seems like a pointless plan. The enemy could just ignore it and go for your objective. Otherwise you have to split your forces; You want to get his objective, defend your own AND defend the pyramid. As we talked about previously, the footprint is huge and the bonuses dont make you immortal, so you can very easily get caught. Also, why even put it there? What are you achieving?
    C is probably a bit too far forward.
    D is the kind of stuff I would do. Probably scoot it a bit forward and closer to the objective, meanwhile the entire pyramid blocks any deep striking from behind. This means you can defend the objective with bodies, meanwhile screening your pyramid.

    From off the top of my head there is 12" from the middle line and down to your territory. So if you scoot up the pyramide to the white line and next to the green objective, you have roughly 22" (Kroak's CD) where the red line ends.
    upload_2020-4-6_16-44-40.png

    On the flipside though, this is exactly the issue - If you place it in D, but lose the roll-off, you have planted a great garrisonable terrain for your opponent to drop his stuff inside. It wont even have to be long range artillery, it could be defensive casters etc., and they suddenly protect the objective rather well. It will automatically prevent any deep striking behind it, since there will be less than 9" too.

    Due to the risk of the enemy getting it, I would be more inclined to put it somewhere like in position C - Its agressive if you get it, but if your opponent can get it, you can still place Kroak on the exactly opposite side in your territory and start nuking whatever is inside.

    Another option could be to place it between B and D. It isnt right next to the objective, but it is close enough that you could defend it with a shooty/magical force, but if the enemy is a more melee heavy army and wins the roll-off, they would have to split their army up to defend both.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Grotpunter
    Troglodon

    Grotpunter Well-Known Member

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    My reply above assumed we could put Kroak inside ontop of a Balewind for extra reach.. Which we cant per the FAQ that I completely forgot. Hmm. Honestly I dont even know what I would want to put inside.

    My plan is to run Kroak + Slann + Starpriest for casters. The Starpriest will have to be within certain range of Skinks to buff them. Kroak cant be set up on his Balewind. Maybe the Slann? Idk at this point.
     
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  12. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    If you put RSE in the center of your deployment zone, Kroak inside will still have a good reach, if astrolith is nearby, because of huge footprint. With arcane vassal, you should be ok with deliverence, and it is the only spell that requires balewind. But slann is, probably, better, if you take one.
     
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  13. ILKAIN
    Skink Chief

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    im sorry I cant see any situation in which a slann is better. its only 60 points and kroak makes that back (almost) on the first turn with the extra roll for a CP... before his much better MW output comes into effect.

    even with the points difference, Kroak is strictly (a lot) better
     
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  14. Grotpunter
    Troglodon

    Grotpunter Well-Known Member

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    You realize he is refering to what hero to put inside the Realmshaper Engine, right? Not if Kroak is worth the 60 pts over a Slann.
     
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  15. ILKAIN
    Skink Chief

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    you realize im referencing even having a slann on your list at all, right?
     
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  16. Grotpunter
    Troglodon

    Grotpunter Well-Known Member

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    It would make sense if it was possible to have multiple of Kroak, which it is not. So no, it makes no sense. There will be lists with both Kroak and a Slann, and we were talking about if it makes sense to put Kroak inside - Likely not due to lack of Balewind, so putting the Slann inside and having Kroak outside would likely be the better choice.
     
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  17. ILKAIN
    Skink Chief

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    why would you take a second slann? the only benefit would be 1d3 summoning (summoning is dead so that's a waste) and a chance at 2 extra CP... which you really don't need in a spell slinging list which would be the only list you would consider a second slann....
     
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  18. Grotpunter
    Troglodon

    Grotpunter Well-Known Member

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    For lots of reasons.

    1. Bound endless spells are flat out insane, its completely broken we only have to pay 10 pts extra per spell to forego the whole risk aspect of endless spells. Any good list should consist of a couple for sure.
    2. Magic compliments Fangs of Sotek extremely well - Makes it a magic heavy and shooting heavy list with tons of MWs output.
    3. Generating extra CPs is very welcome in a Fangs of Sotek list, especially seeing our batallions are pretty balls so you wont run Aetherquartz Broch.
    4. Extra caster to cast said endless spells.
    5. Spell lore is great - Buffing everyone, including Kroak, with +1 is strong. Especially since it isnt just casting, but also dispelling and unbinding. Other spells in the spell lore is great.
    6. Summoning is not dead at all. It is a great complimentary mechanic for Starborne. It is not the same as before, it is different.
    7. If you want CCP you have to make your Kroak the general, hence you lose out on a command trait. Arcane Might is very strong. There are lists that relying on casting bridge etc. to alpha you in turn 1. Due to too many drops, you wont be able to go first and get all your +unbinding, so having a reroll is amazing against situations like this. It is also a dice game, sometimes you will just roll badly = Reroll it.
     
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  19. ILKAIN
    Skink Chief

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    1 Bound spells are good
    2 Magic does compliment FOS
    3 Skink heros also generate extra CP and are cheaper
    4 Skink casters are also an extra caster and are cheaper
    5 the +1 cast board wide is very beneficial and the only thing you listed that cant be done more efficiently
    6 summoning is dead competitively. its got too much variance and too little cost benefit for the prices.
    7 we don't want CCP, because summoning is dead
     
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  20. Grotpunter
    Troglodon

    Grotpunter Well-Known Member

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    Skink casters are good, but they are 1 cast wizards, so you either have to pick between warscroll spell, lore spell or an endless spell. All of which are superb.

    Lets see what competitive AOS looks like around Q3 2020 when tournaments maybe start again. I think you will be surprised.
     
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