8th Ed. (Redirect To) Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen!

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

I have no doubt that the extra attack is not an "initial supporting attack" and, thus, was intended to apply to all attacks by models with the PF rule (think about Krox in the second rank of a skrox unit) and does not require rolling to supporting attacks separately from the front rank R&F model attacks. However, it will probability still end up in a debate until FAq'd.

In answer on the issue of the oldblood extra value, I think people do not understand the concepts of force multiplier and survivability/resilience. As a Dark Elf player, I understand how important it is to have a character (dreadlord with pendant, crown of comman, and high AS on a peg or cold one) that can hold up something my army cannot deal with very well for a long time and to effectively deal with monsters and tough stuff. If I lose my dreadlord too early in the battle (usually to lore of death spells when temporarility out of combat or really bad luck on saves), my army is exposed and will lose given I'm playing in tournaments and ranked players. The oldblood is typically modestly more killy than a scra vet (25% more attacks with better probability of hitting on 3's than a scar vet) but it is the extra wound and the much ability to have a max armour save (+1 at least but also with more magic points to spend on heavy armour and ward save and still have luckstone or dawnstone). An extra +1 to the armour save is worth 50% more on an oldblood than a scar vet due to the extra wound. An extra +1 to the ward save is worth 50% more on an oldblood than a scar vet. Additionally, the value of increasing the ward save from 5+ to 4+ is a 33.35 increase in survivability whereas buying a 6+ ward save increases value by only 16.7%. With the armour saves, the math is even more dramatic. Going from a 3+ to a 2+ armour save is a huge benefit (doubles survivability against S3, 50% increase in survivability against S4, 33.3% increase against S5, and 25% increase against S6). Thus, the difference in value of 4+ scaly skin as compared with 5+ scaly skin when combined with light armour and shield or heavy armour (or something equivalent) when combined with +1 wound on the oldblood makes the oldblood worth between 187.5% and 300% more than a scar vet in terms of the rate at which victory points given up effectively. That does not consider the ability of the oldblood to combine the high armour save with a decent ward save and a re-roll of the AS well beyiond the scar vet. The dawnstone compiunds the value of that extra =1 scaly skin save on the oldblood. Combine that with the +1 attack and +1WS and you would, absent any army comprestrictions, always take one oldblood over two scar vets in terms of value in the game. for that reason.

You will run into a lot of situations where the scar vet dies three times or even six times faster than the oldblood in the same combat With the dead or fled rule, it is the ability of the oldblood to survive and fight another day (or at least get an extra round or two of attacks in combat asnd deny ACR) that makes him so good. With the Slann less powerful as a magic caster and magic defender, there are options for running two skinks priests (one a special character) with scroll and cube and fight without the Slann or run a less expensive slann and run a full oldblood. My son won one of his "tough" games this weekend even though his slann blew up early (due to soft comp scoring, he ran beast lore and no cupped hands) by running a light slann and a decent oldblood. Without the oldblood, even if he keeps his slann he loses that game and does not win a general award. By contrast, another local top LM player (top ranked and has won GTs) blew up his slann against me last year in the fifth round of a GT and got massacred without an oldblood to deal with my daemons army that loses more than half of the time to my son's slann army and still loses about a third of the time if the slann blows up in midgame.

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Ok, so I called GW on the whole PF thing. I was told it does effect all attacks. A friend of mine called and got the exact opposite answer. So I called again and got a different person, I asked the question in general, not telling them we received 2 separate answers and was told GW has not made a ruling on this and advised me to come to an agreement with my opponent or roll a die to decide how to play it and then told me that they were looking into the matter and a FAQ/errata will be out as soon as they make a decision.

Well at least the last guy was honest.

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

The last person at GW gave the right answer. This was discussed a while back in the White Dwarf by Jervis. Even the game designer/author will sometimes find that the rule as written given the BRB rules does not have the effect intended. or has a consequence different than when the author wrote the army book special rule or rules.

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Agreed, I just love it though that it took multiple calls for one guy to be honest. Seems they are torn as everyone else.

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

I'd just like to thank Olderplayer for his post above regarding force multipliers etc. Things such as this have always been a consideration for me but your post really brought it into a new light.

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Realy it is my son's idea. He plays a "light" slann with a kitted oldblood in his tournament army builds and is really big on why the oldblood is far superior in terms of not given up victory points and in terms of the extra 50 magic points and +1 AS allowing the oldblood to really hold up in combat and kill characters, including in challenges, relative to to a scar vet.

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Yeah, the Oldblood is a lot of killing power in one model, and is especially valuable in his ability to go with 1+ rerollable save along with 4+ ward save and great weapon. He is just a touch overshadowed by the big frog.

I guess one thing I should add is that a no-Slann army is more viable now, and you could build around Lore of Beasts skink priests and the bastilodon's bound spells. An Oldblood or two leading the way would be quite nice, especially combined with some mighty scar-vets. I can't wait to see the combat builds that come out based on no Slann.


In other news, I've added a blurb about Carnosaurs as well as the Core section!

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Core add

Not trying to step on toes here but you don't get parry with javelins and shields. You only get it with hand weapon and shields. Unless I missed an errata/FAQ somewhere.

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Core add

Jav/Shields only replace the blowpipe. They still have hand weapons!

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Core add

Oh! Ok, sorry in getting my book Friday. Wasn't thinking they has hand weapons too.

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Core add

Great review so far, much appriciated!

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Core add

Keep up the good work! I eagerly await the specials!

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Core add

This is really good stuff. Much appreciated. Keep it up!

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Specials

Thanks for the feedback! Specials are now added (took me a while!)

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Specials

Fist of all: thanks for your review, I find it a very useful analysis.

Rolebook page 84: all the swarm have the Skirmisher rule. So, nothing change from previus book. Nothing exept the drop in point e a potentially great special ability, of cuorse.

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Specials

Ha! Good call. I guess you can tell how often I face off against swarms eh?

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Specials

Those seem to be the first swarms in a while to be worth fielding.
All it took to make these kinds of units useful was some great utility.

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Specials

you mean like batswarms =p?

Who arnt used at all

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Specials

VC have other ways of striking first with most of their units that do damage, while their big anvil units are just there to hold up choppy units and not die completely, and striking first for them would make no difference.

Adding poison to an entire combat can be very significant, especially if you are combo-charging and dishing out a lot of attacks with PF already. Since there is no other way to grant our fighty lizard blocks poison attacks (apart from skink cohorts), it is a unique unit buffer. Even if you're facing something of relatively average toughness (say 3 or 4), poison will improve your average number of wounds significantly. Also the swarms can't be dispelled. Is it worth 70 points to really beef up a combat round or two? Probably... and especially if you're fighting something with high toughness and average armor. It's yet another way to cause positive spikes in combat potential. Roll more than average 6's, and you will do a ton of extra damage due to the PF and poison kicking in.

 

Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Specials

Love the Review.

I know Poison ees back on the menu, Amigo, but.....

.... sadly the Bastiladon's Sotek's A$$ attacks aren't poisonous. They are auto hit, therefore no rolling of 6s required, therefore no poison (I was not the genius who spotted this)

Now here is a FAQ question if ever there was one. Does the Solar Engine grant I+1 for the Bastilodon and its crew?