Discussion Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deities

[Scalenex]

The Old Ones and Chaos Gods are essentially timeless.

What about Gork and Mork, the Great Maw, Khaine and the other Elven gods, the Dwarven Gods, Ulric, Morr, Sotek, Hashut, etc etc.

Here's my metaphysical theory. The other gods are Children of the Old Ones and the four Chaos Gods. Not in the sense of coupling like the Ancient Greek gods (no crude jokes please) but in the sense that the Old Ones and Chaos Gods represent primal drives and aspirations of mortals. The conflict between their interactions creates new personalities. It's on a continuum. Hashut is like 95% Chaos, Khaine is like 85% Chaos, Sotek is probably 30% Chaos etc.

THe fact that combinatiions of the Old Ones and the Chaos Gods are propping up the world is why the battle is always intense but never changes the status quo.

I don't know how many of you guys are familiar with the Old World of Darkness from White Wolf Publishing. They talked about the end of the world being near for years then they actually ended the world. I've pondered what an end-game scenario would look like in the Old World but that's a topic for another thread. First we need to establish the origins and goals of the lesser Warhammer gods.

 

[Axolotyl]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

The gods of warhammer are metaphysical reflections of emotions from the physical world. Look at slaanesh, that was born from the decadence and debauchery of the eldar. Sotek came forth when the saurus were i decline, and the fast thinking and emotional skinks became angry and wrathful (khornete), the horned rat is born from fear and disease,a mangy rat eat rat society tainted by malign magic, sigmar was born when he physically died, and the faith and reverration, and hope of a new future brought him forth.
Heh grok and mork, anger and war? Do I need to explain that one?

Often the gods are known by many names, and as civilisations come and go they just get renamed. To turn back to the example of eldar/elves.....the eldar/elves have always acknowledge the god they know as "khaine" a god which reflects their hatred and warlike tendency when roused *cough*Khorne*cough* when slaanesh came about, it was Khaine which defeated him and prevented the consumption of the eldar race, in the elves khaine slew slaaneshi daemon princes and greater daemons which assaulted Ulthlan. Classical,y in the warhammer pantheon who hates slaanesh? KHORNE!!!!

 

[spawning of Bob]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

Thanks, Scalenex.

I have put some thought into this, but didn't have enough to go on for a series....Until now!

Here's my metaphysical theory. The other gods are Children of the Old Ones and the four Chaos Gods. Not in the sense of coupling like the Ancient Greek gods (no crude jokes please) but in the sense that the Old Ones and Chaos Gods represent primal drives and aspirations of mortals. The conflict between their interactions creates new personalities. It's on a continuum. Hashut is like 95% Chaos, Khaine is like 85% Chaos, Sotek is probably 30% Chaos etc.

You cite the connection between the Old Ones (order) and that lot (chaos) to come up with hybrids.

My belief is that the Chaos Gods could collaborate.

Exhibit A: The Ferocity of Khorne tempered by the sleight of hand of Tzeentch. Baby Steps.
Khorne + Tzeentch = Khaine


Exhibit B: The impressionable skink spawnlings of Chaqua were easily manipulated to follow Sotek.
Khorne + Tzeentch = SockPuppet


Exhibit C: The Skaven were easy pickings.
Nurgle + Tzeentch = The Great Horned Rat


Exhibit D: Surely the most heinous. Hopes raised. Hopes crushed.
Slaanesh + Tzeentch = Chessex

Did anyone else notice that the Chessex Logo is the 8 pointed star of Chaos?

Do we really want to go with these guys, fluffwise?

Don't say I didn't warn you.....

 

[VampTeddy]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

When did i get the honor of getting included so much in these.

I am truly honored ^^

 

[Scalenex]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

When did i get the honor of getting included so much in these.

I am truly honored ^^

Because you got a custom avatar quicky and are working on an ambitious Tactica. Those things get the attention of those of us who spend too much of our free time on this forum.

 

[VampTeddy]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

When did i get the honor of getting included so much in these.

I am truly honored ^^

Because you got a custom avatar quicky and are working on an ambitious Tactica. Those things get the attention of those of us who spend too much of our free time on this forum.

Oh but i'm here so rarely... my posts to days been here ratio is only so slightly above 1

 

[rychek]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

<Old One mode>
Accept thine fate VampTeddy, for thou hast been chosen. Deny not thine destiny as the occasional subject of Spawning of Bob!
</Old One mode>

 

[ElectricPaladin]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

I'm a relative newcomer, but personally I don't really like the idea of the various gods of the setting as being one and the same with the chaos gods. I know that is a relatively grim setting, but it sucks out a lot of the drama if the two main "sides" of the conflict are actually the same. I mean, what's the point?

The way I always saw it is that there are forces of order and forces of chaos, but they have to drink from the same "well" so to speak. I mean, sentient beings will always have an urge to kill each other. Sometimes you just want to shank someone. Of course, there are two ways you can go about this: you can go completely berserk and kill everything in sight (Khorne) or you can engage in targeted, specific, intelligent murder (Khaine). Both are violent, but the latter is "controlled," folded into order and civilization. Or, let's say that you're ambitious and schemey. You can just go all-out and work completely for yourself (Tzeentch) or you can work to make yourself productive to society so that others will recognize you and put you in charge of stuff (I dunno... some of the Old Ones?).

With this interpretation, there's still some drama and tension, but you still explain the similarities between the Chaos gods and the other gods.

 

[spawning of Bob]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

Having put some actual thought into this question:

I feel like the gods get the worshipers they deserve and vice versa.

In the warhammer world, elemental energies (which include emotions, such as rage) are able to coalesce into tangible form. Manifestations range from "marked" or "inspired" individuals and units all the way up to incarnations.

It seems that the god reflects the nature of the worshiper, and the worshiper that of his god. Khorne an d Tzeentrch are easy examples, but consider orcs / Gork / Mork, or Sigmar.

When we hit Khorne / Khaine / Gork situations, we find the rage god component and the earthly nature of their worshippers interacting to produce discrete god personalities. Could Gork and the Avatar of Khaine face off in battle one day? In this world yes. The pure rage, twisted by the influence of the different worshipers, is altered enough that the two versions are in conflict. And if mindless violence god, and murder god are in conflict, it is best to observe from a distance.

I know little about the Lady or Sigmar, but..... I don't think Sigmar appears and does stuff, but yet his priests gain power from him. I think the power is contained in a coalescence of virtuous energies (resolve, faith) and the Empire priests picture this in the form of the God King.

And then there are the Old Ones. I feel like the Old Ones would not have seen themselves as gods. Maybe more like engineers or gardeners. They were shaping the world for a purpose, but for all we know it was cosmetic or frivolous.

Of their works, the geomantic web alone points at a purpose beyond the scope of this world. This device, when working properly (all nodes intact) would have more than enough power for any work on this world. Was the power for export / industry / was it required to allow interplanar travel?

Regardless of intent, they are gone. They left cool machines, and ambiguous plaques. I wouldn't rely on them riding up during act 3 and helping us out with a bunch of exposition to explain why every thing is going to work out just fine.

The late comer, Sotek, is likely to prove to be a a divisive if not dangerous addition. He is either still around and potent, or is made up and going to be a fizzer. The Old Ones aren't around to oppose him, and the Slann are pragmatic enough to avoid internal conflict on this issue.

So:

Gods act / possess / influence, but within the nature of their worshipers.

The worshippers themselves are pretty homogenous within their racial types (arrogant elves, greedy dwarves) which reflects the inherent laziness of GW and everyone else (including me) who run with stereotypes. And <cough> plagiarism.

The Old Ones are (probably) duds, but if they return they will probably have a chuckle about how the plan went, before wiping the world clean and starting again.

If that's not your style, there are enough parallel universes for us all to occupy in happiness. Scalenex has 2 or 3 that he lives in.

(disclaimer - it is way too late for me. I'm off to bed)

SoB

 

[Scalenex]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

I guess what I'm leading up to here. Games Workshop has all their armies in an eternal stalemate.

If the forces of Chaos managed to take out the High Elves vortex or do something else to allow a permanent deamon presence and the the combined Chaos forces moved for final victory, would the other gods being willing and able to try to stop them? What do the various gods actually DO anyway? Apart from twin tailed comets hitting things and Sotek's brief Skaven eating adventure, it seems only the Chaos Gods direclty intervene.

Which Forces of Destruction armies would join the Chaos nihilistic crusade and which would join the Forces of Order (if only by not fighting them) out of a desire to survive?

 

[Axolotyl]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

Sigmar helps those who help themselves, his interventions ate miracles, giving a farmers son the courage to fend of a pack of wolves, protecting the faithful man from malign temptation, raising the faithful servant to their feet despite mortal wounds, giving a priest the fervour to inspire or protect his flock.

His intervention came for the skaven plague when the then corrupt emperor and court died, within a week the plague turned and infected the rat men.....

The horned rat takes an active interest in his kin, but only "helps" when asked, and often only when great sacrifice is offered and the council of thirteen agrees, a thankfully rare occurrence!

 

[VampTeddy]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

I guess what I'm leading up to here. Games Workshop has all their armies in an eternal stalemate.

If the forces of Chaos managed to take out the High Elves vortex or do something else to allow a permanent deamon presence and the the combined Chaos forces moved for final victory, would the other gods being willing and able to try to stop them? What do the various gods actually DO anyway? Apart from twin tailed comets hitting things and Sotek's brief Skaven eating adventure, it seems only the Chaos Gods direclty intervene.

Which Forces of Destruction armies would join the Chaos nihilistic crusade and which would join the Forces of Order (if only by not fighting them) out of a desire to survive?

I believe DE would take the side of the forces of order in such a struggle tbh - not nessecarily laying aside their hostility to the HE offcourse, but they've (according to the BRB) had several trouble with the forces of chaos already. I take that to mean they're actually more neutral than evil. They're just branded evil because, well the way they're neutral is kinda cruel.

Ogres would probably be a boiling pot of going to both sides, just for the chance to eat some humies or the likes.

Nekhara just wants everything to die, and rule it in the process, if there's nothing to rule, no fun right? -> order.

Sylvania allready chose sides during the last great war (in the fantasy rpg setting at least) by killing the armies of chaos with the dead soldiers defending the realms of man. -> order.

i don't think skaven would care tbh. I think they'd just multiply as always, i don't really think chaos is a threat to them anyways... they're probably the most powerful of all the races.

The Orcs are too dumb to care, they'd probably kill everything they see until they're surrounded by Chaos on all sides - maybe the smarter warbosses will join order though? maybe some of the dumber and more cruel ones will join chaos?

i probably forgot some too, but it's obvious where WoC, Beastmen and Daemons would go.

What i think is an even more interesting question is "what if the realm of man was unable to halt the tide of chaos?"

if the capitol and the emperor died, how many city states would be willing to give into chaos, under false promises of survival? given enough pressure even the mightiest state can fall, and even the most resolute man can give in to the lure of chaos.

 

[Axolotyl]

Re: Relationship between Old Ones, Chaos, and the other deit

For ok I see your points vamp, BUT dwarves made a pact in the time of sigmar to forever be the allies of man to honor the debt of honor when Sigmar rescued the dwarf king from the green skins. Far man to fall, the dwarves must fall, and if the dwarves are going to get a kicking the skaven will join in that kicking!

Irks just love a fight, I think you will find that there won't be a side per say, just a lot of war bosses being paid, bribed or joining in for the fun of it!

The Bretonians and the wood elves are intertwined, The Lady, the goddess the Bretons worship, is one of the Wood Elf gods who every winter abdicates the elves and fosters the bond between Breton and the elves, while the elves slumber i. Winter the Bretons protect the forest. When one is threatened the other reacts, so both fall into the side of order, if only for selfish gain and reason!

As for the dark elves, it think that their nation would again fall i to civil war, that the secret cult of slaanesh would reveal itself and they would again fall into conflict with the Khainites.

 

[Kcibrihp-Esurc]

OMG RARRR!
SO MANY OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT WHFB AND 40K AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!!!!

THE TYRANIDS WILL COME AND DEVOUR US ALL FOR BREAKING THE WALL BETWEEN HIGH FANTASY AND FANTASY SCI-FI!!!
BEWARE! THE GREAT DEVOURER SHALL COME, THE SHADOW OF THE WARP SHALL BLOT OUT THE SKY AND THE PENANCE OF THE ELDER GODS WILL FALL UPON US!!!

OUR DOOM HAS COME!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

OMG RARRR!
SO MANY OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT WHFB AND 40K AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!!!!

THE TYRANIDS WILL COME AND DEVOUR US ALL FOR BREAKING THE WALL BETWEEN HIGH FANTASY AND FANTASY SCI-FI!!!
BEWARE! THE GREAT DEVOURER SHALL COME, THE SHADOW OF THE WARP SHALL BLOT OUT THE SKY AND THE PENANCE OF THE ELDER GODS WILL FALL UPON US!!!

OUR DOOM HAS COME!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!

Your Tyranids are no match for the Necrons and their mighty Star gods. Nothing can stop the C'tan... oh wait, Matt Ward did what?!?! Ahhhh never mind, Tyranids for the win. Stupid Matt Ward!

 

[Xbalanque]

Warp Scythe...trolololololol ( I play also Eldar)

 

[Kcibrihp-Esurc]

I don't have an army yet but I'm planning on Eldar Raiders
(Dark Eldar without the fudged up attitude)

 

[Scalenex]

On topic please...

 

[spawning of Bob]

I came here to sit at Scalenex's feet and absorb his wisdom and what I got was

On topic please...

I lost interest somewhat in reading the End Times. Therefore I must ask:

Did the Great Evacuation Rage Quit reveal more about the Old One's plans?
Does the killing of a few "nice" gods tell us more about what kind of entities they are?
Are the Chaos gods capable of incarnation, or are they still stuck using proxies?

 

[Fhanados]

I haven't read Thanquol yet so I'm not sure about the Old Ones or their plans - but Slaanesh makes an appearance in person at the end of Khaine and sticks his/her/it's hand through the magic vortex on Ulthuan to chow down on some elves. I think given sufficient magical saturation the Gods would be able to turn up in person, but other than Khorne it doesn't seem like their style.

In Glottkin Nurgle can be seen in the clouds watching the battle at Altdorf too, but that could be a projection rather than a physical manifestation of papa Nurgle himself.