8th Ed. RIP Spell on Destroyed Unit

[MI_Tiger]

In a game last weekend, we had an interesting situation come up. My opponent cast Fiery Convocation on a unit which included characters. The spell does damage immediately then continues in play doing damage in every magic phase. By the end of the enemy's shooting phase, the unit was completely wiped out but one character still survived.

Does the spell remain in play on the surviving character, or does it end when the rank-and-file are destroyed? And if it stays on the character, what happens if they join another unit?

Has this been addressed in the rules or FAQs? Thanks for any help you can give me.

 

[rychek]

Unless I've missed something recently, there have not been any FAQs in at least seven months (probably more though). In light of that, what follows is my opinion based on my understanding of the rules.

Technically speaking, once a charachter joins a unit, it is a part of that unit. Thus the charachter would be afflicted by the RiP spell, even after all of the rank and file are depeleted. By that same logic, if he then joins a new unit the spell would affect the entire new unit as well.

 

[hdctambien]

Technically speaking, once a charachter joins a unit, it is a part of that unit. Thus the charachter would be afflicted by the RiP spell, even after all of the rank and file are depeleted. By that same logic, if he then joins a new unit the spell would affect the entire new unit as well.

I think this is correct. The unit and character count separately for Victory Points, but during the game they are a single unit.

If the character leaves the unit, the controlling player can choose to have the RiP spell stay on the character or on the unit (so if the character had the Dragonbane Gem, he could just pop out of the unit, take the spell with him, and not have to worry about it) But I don't think that same rule applies to when the unit is destroyed.

 

[Ondjage]

Found this in the FAQ:

Q: If a Wizard casts a spell that targets himself, or himself and his unit, and then leaves the unit, will the spell remain on both the Wizard and the unit? (p97)
A: No, once the Wizard has left the unit it will only target him. If he subsequently joins another unit, or rejoins the unit he has left, while the spell is still in play then they will benefit from the spell.

 

[rychek]

Good point Ondjage. However I don't think that applies directly to this situation. In the FAQ you posted, the player is choosing to have the character leave the unit. Thus breaking the single unit into two units when the character leaves. In the OP, the player is not choosing to separate the character from the unit, but rather the rank and file of the unit are killed off by the spell and leave the character solo. The character never left the unit, thus it is still part of the unit and subject to the spell.

 

[MI_Tiger]

Thanks for posting your thoughts. We played it like Rychek suggested - the spell remained in play on the character. It never came up, but we decided that if he joined another unit, the spell would continue on the character but not effect the unit.

I'm not completely satisfied with that, but it doesn't seem like there is a clear answer. Hopefully this is an obscure situation that won't come up too often.

For whatever its worth, I think the spell should cease when the unit is destroyed, based on the ruling that a character could leave the unit and no longer be effected by the spell. I didn't realize that a character could choose to "take the spell with him" - I thought it always stayed on the unit. But then how would a unit composed completely of characters work ... I suppose one character could "take one for the team" by leaving the unit with the spell.

Hopefully it won't come up next time. Thanks again.

 

[VampTeddy]

Thanks for posting your thoughts. We played it like Rychek suggested - the spell remained in play on the character. It never came up, but we decided that if he joined another unit, the spell would continue on the character but not effect the unit.

I'm not completely satisfied with that, but it doesn't seem like there is a clear answer. Hopefully this is an obscure situation that won't come up too often.

For whatever its worth, I think the spell should cease when the unit is destroyed, based on the ruling that a character could leave the unit and no longer be effected by the spell. I didn't realize that a character could choose to "take the spell with him" - I thought it always stayed on the unit. But then how would a unit composed completely of characters work ... I suppose one character could "take one for the team" by leaving the unit with the spell.

Hopefully it won't come up next time. Thanks again.

The spell goes into effect on the unit.

Thus the unit, the entire unit is hit.

I'd say if a unit of characters are hit, each character who leaves the unit still carries the spell.

I do not believe it's infectious though - that it hits every model in units joined - it was cast at a unit, and clings to that unit, and everyone in it, untill dispelled.

Now question is if a single dispel is enough? - i'd say so, i can't see why the spell would clone itself.

 

[Lizardmatt]

At the end of the phase in which a unit is wiped out, the character is no longer part of the unit.
IMO, if Convocation kills a while unit (sans the characters), then the spell ends.
The target (the original unit) is gone. The character(s) that where in the unit are now all alone.

The FAQ posted is addressing spells like Earthblood. The wizard and his unit gain 5+ regen.
Spells that target a unit are not the same as spells that target and character and his unit.

-Matt

 

[hdctambien]

I'm not particularly sure which way this rule should work, but I did find this in the FAQ:

Q: At what point after a unit has been wiped out do any
characters remaining count as having left the unit? (p101)
A: As soon as the last model from the unit has been
removed, any remaining characters will count as a new unit.
Note that this will cause Panic tests to all friendly units
within 6" (including the newly formed unit of character(s))
as the unit has been destroyed.

So it seems that could mean that the "new unit" of character(s) would not be affected by any spell that targeted the "old unit" of regular models and the characters.

It seems wonky though, since the Characters were technically targeted by the spell when it was originally cast.

 

[Lizardmatt]

I'm not particularly sure which way this rule should work, but I did find this in the FAQ:

Q: At what point after a unit has been wiped out do any
characters remaining count as having left the unit? (p101)
A: As soon as the last model from the unit has been
removed, any remaining characters will count as a new unit.
Note that this will cause Panic tests to all friendly units
within 6" (including the newly formed unit of character(s))
as the unit has been destroyed.

So it seems that could mean that the "new unit" of character(s) would not be affected by any spell that targeted the "old unit" of regular models and the characters.

It seems wonky though, since the Characters were technically targeted by the spell when it was originally cast.

The character(s) weren't targeted, the "unit" was. While in the unit, the characters count as part of it. The FAQ you posted shows pretty clearly that they aren't part of that unit any more.
If they were, you could claim you don't get Victory points for those Skull Crushers until you kill this Khorne Lord, because he had joined the unit.

-Matt

 

[VampTeddy]

I'm not particularly sure which way this rule should work, but I did find this in the FAQ:

Q: At what point after a unit has been wiped out do any
characters remaining count as having left the unit? (p101)
A: As soon as the last model from the unit has been
removed, any remaining characters will count as a new unit.
Note that this will cause Panic tests to all friendly units
within 6" (including the newly formed unit of character(s))
as the unit has been destroyed.

So it seems that could mean that the "new unit" of character(s) would not be affected by any spell that targeted the "old unit" of regular models and the characters.

It seems wonky though, since the Characters were technically targeted by the spell when it was originally cast.

The character(s) weren't targeted, the "unit" was. While in the unit, the characters count as part of it. The FAQ you posted shows pretty clearly that they aren't part of that unit any more.
If they were, you could claim you don't get Victory points for those Skull Crushers until you kill this Khorne Lord, because he had joined the unit.

-Matt

That FAQ is indeed explanatory, TY for finding it for us ^^

i would definetly have been confused out of my mind playing it my way

 

[rychek]

I'm not particularly sure which way this rule should work, but I did find this in the FAQ:

Q: At what point after a unit has been wiped out do any
characters remaining count as having left the unit? (p101)
A: As soon as the last model from the unit has been
removed, any remaining characters will count as a new unit.
Note that this will cause Panic tests to all friendly units
within 6" (including the newly formed unit of character(s))
as the unit has been destroyed.

So it seems that could mean that the "new unit" of character(s) would not be affected by any spell that targeted the "old unit" of regular models and the characters.

It seems wonky though, since the Characters were technically targeted by the spell when it was originally cast.

I think this explanation from GW is a bit wonky on the logic side, but since when has that mattered to them? I'm just glad to have an official answer.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Yeah, from way back when they gave answers...

Still waiting for a FAQ.