8th Ed. saurus saurus saurus...........

Just keep in mind that the PF rule does not allow Saurus that are not in the front rank to get extra attacks.

Now, if they change that rule via errata or 9th edition, then by golly yes, your unit will kick ass! (and I bet others will start using similar units - including me!)

 

In my meta we play with saurus getting PF no matter the rank. The city rule guru and all players read it and agreed that it is for all saurus and frankly so do I. I will play it that way until it gets errated otherwise. No sense in undercutting myself based on perceived GW vagueness. Its not bias either because my local shope only sees about 3 lizzies players including me, so everyone else is cool with it.

 

It's not percieved vagueness; the rules explicitly state that models making supporting attacks can only ever make 1 attack, even if they have a special rule or ability that would normally give them extra attacks.

Your group is free to house rule it if you want, but the rules are super clear.

 

Fair enough, I guess all I mean is that me, and every other person in my town who plays, beleives that this is a simple miswording, and then GW would not be likely to make a rule that would cause close combat attacks made by one unit onto one other unit have to be made in two separate rolls always. But I understand what your saying as well. Frankly, I cannot beelive that a debated this heated and major has not been errated or FAQed yet, but we will have to wait and see.

 

On that, we can all agree. The rule may be clear but it's totally a perfect candidate for a Frequently Asked Question document.

Glad to see, by the way, you acknowledge that the rule is what it is and that your group has simply opted to change the rules for games between friends (nothing wrong with that).

That bring me to another thing -


You are clearly enthusiastic and positive about your Saurus. I'm thinking you have a lot you could share with the community, and we'd like to get the benefit of that. I know I would.

The thing is, though, the discovery that you group has changed the rules of the game in a way that is so beneficial to Lizardmen makes me feel like I need to know what other rules your group has modified.

In order to really understand your success, we need to know what the rules are for your group.

So, what other modifications do you use?
Do you make your lists before rolling for the scenario? Do you play with TLoS? Are there any rules in effect to limit magic?

Basically the question is "Other than PF, are you changing the game at all?"

Thanks for any insight you can provide.

 

Forgive me for going on a bit of a tangent here, but when it comes to sword and board vs. spears, what's the consensus? With extra ranks not getting PF (which, sadly, would be the interpretation I would have to take, though I can see a potential counterargument), is the extra rank of attacks that good?

 

It is one of those things where it matters what units you have in the list, the size of the unit, the formation. There is no simple always choose spear or shield.



However I do find that if you are a defensive player spears work better as an offensive player hand weapon works better.

 

I take units of no more than 25. I also ALWAYS take Gor Rok with me where ever I go, so it doesn't matter too much if I lose combat (stubborn).

 

The correct answer is: spears and hand weapons are better against different types of things.

Squishy thing you can easily wound = spears are better
Killy things you can't really wound = hand weapons are better

For each individual opponent, the math changes.

 

If you think about it, HW will do better in any formation where you don't get to take advantage of the extra attacks of the spears. So anything that is 2 ranks deep, or 3 ranks deep in horde formation, choose Hand Weapons always - there is literally no reason to choose spears if you're intending to use those formations.

However, if you run more than 2 ranks (or more than 3 in horde) then your spears will do extra wounds, while your parry saves will reduce the number of wounds you'll take.

Assuming you are fighting troops with identical stats (WS3, T4, 4+ AS and no parry), spearmen will do 1/6 extra wounds (hit on 4s, wound on 4s, save on 5s = 1/6 chance of kill), which is identical to the number of wounds you would save by having HW shield. So, HW/shield then becomes a way to an equal number of wounds in certain formations, but to lose less models. Spears will do more wounds in deeper formations, but also take more.

Now, once your opponent has S5 or higher, HW/shield will stick around for considerably longer. Is it enough to make a difference? Let's see:

Taking a S5 hit means you are wounded on 3s and saving on 6s, so a casualty 56% of the time. This is reduced to 46% of the time when you have a parry. S6 and above hits means you are wounded on 2s, with no save, so a casualty 83% of the time. This is reduced to 69% if you have a parry.

Bearing that in mind, I would say that Spears are actually a more offensive option to take because you'll inflict more wounds, but you'll also lose more models. HW is the more defensive of the two.

This doesn't answer the perennial question of which to choose, but it does shed some light on how to answer it for any given match-up.

 

I think you got me all wrong here. All I am saying is that in my town we refuse to believe that the wording of that rule is anything other than an unfortunate oversight and so play it with PF affecting supporting attacks. The only other "differential play" I can think of is that we don't tend to roll scenarios we usually just play pitch battles, and at the hobby store, there is usually no magic terrain, it all just counts at regular stuff (although when we play at my house we use magical terrain as denoted in the BRB). Everything else is by the book to my knowledge. I guess keeping that in mind, feel free to ask me any questions you may have as to how I use my saurus warriors. I am always happy to contribute when I can. As for now, I am going to go try and learn the best way to use a Carno.

 

=> That's honest. Cool.

=> Good to know. Those are both pretty big changes, especially not rolling scenarios. It makes a superhugeginormous difference in how army lists are built, for sure.

If you know ahead of time that Watchtower won't come up (for example), then you don't have to worry about taking anything that can hold it. A Chaos Warriors army, for instance, is free to go all chariots for core and monsters and cav for rares and specials. As a long-time TK player, one reason I don't fear WoC armies is because I have the tools to handle Watchtower, can afford to sacrifice my units to delay anything that could fight me for it, and - most importantly - the opponent cannot take that chariot army I mentioned.

Blood & Glory is similar. If you don't have to worry about taking banners, it lets you customize your army and focus on power, power, power. Knowing you autolose if you don't start with enough Fortitude will change a lot of army builds! Plus, just using the WoC vs TK comparison again, I _know_ my army cannot stand up in a fight to his army. His units are just plain better across the board. In B&G I can try to kill just a few important things for the win. It TOTALLY changes the dynamic of the game and what goes in our army lists.

Incidentally, not using Dawn Attack or Meeting Engagement really helps VC players. They get to automatically know that they can plan on keeping what they want in range of the General. That's a big deal as it encourages much more powerful builds.

Again, you are absolutely right to play as you want with your buddies. No problem there. This new info, though, will certainyl be something I keep in mind as I look at any lists or reports you post from games in your group. Definitely do post them, by the way. Other than PF, it looks like you are playing the game within the "this is a possible outsome" set of rules (you could roll Battleline and all just regular terrain every game, after all).

Thanks for the clarification.

 

You could look at it as a training with weights on type of scenario, but in all honestly, everyone builds balanced lists. The tournaments put on here are run by the shop owner, and are all just pitched battle scenarios, you would lose big points for a cheesy army, not to mention probably getting whipped by a more balanced put together list. Which, coming back to the real topic of this thread, is why I love saurus because they are malleable in different situations. I just steam rolled an ogre army yesterday, taking out a unit of 27 hoard formation ironguts with the bsb, general, and butcher in it. Saurus ftw.

This time I tried taking out my swarms and making a few other changes to add in a second ancient steg. It saw success. This Fri night I will be playing a 5 player triumph and treachery game, against two ogres, chaos warriors, and vamps. Should be a blast and I feel that saurus will again hold the day.

 

I tried a horde of saurus once agains my high elf buddy, and found myself COMPLETELY outmanouvered, they actually didnt see melee combat the entire game and I lost. How do you get them in CC?

 

I usually manage to get mine slaughtered in numbers of 30, with not a single model left.

I dread fielding 40, but might attempt so for the added attacks, i never do get to be steadfast anyways.

 

The thing is, if you take a bunch of saurus, then your army has to be designed around them. They ARE the strategy. They are both your sword and your shield so to speak. For example, I run mine in a horde of 60 with spears and full command. By itself, it is obviously a formidable unit with many attacks to the front, ranks to stick around, etc.. BUT it can, as noted, be outmaneuvered, overwhelmed, targeted by spells, shooting etc. So I basically said, well, all the other elements of my army will be designed to not only support my big unit of saurus, but also to force the enemy to combat me and o it on my terms.

So that unit of saurus is 690. Then I (lately) have been throwing into it, two old bloods, and a scar-vet BSB. The Scar-vet and my general are decked out with defensive type items, i.e. gold sigil sword, armor of destiny, amulet of preservation type items. In addition my general has crown of command to ensure my big unit fights to the last man. The second old blood is tooled up to kill, currently I run him with sword of anti-heroes since enemy heroes will come to this unit, since its the only big combat unit and all my important characters are in it. I also gave him the obsidian amulet, where the 5+ MR stacks with the units 6+ward from my EotG to give the unit a 4+ ward save against most spell damage. I also give him egg of quango for extra combat res. Those 3 characters come up to about another 661. Meaning that in a 2500 point game, almost half the points are in one unit. In the words of Gimli "Bring your pretty face to my ax". Then I have a bastiladon with a solar engine, that sticks mostly behind the unit (although it depends on the enemy) to buff the whole unit and characters I by one and provide some long range magical support. i have 2 beast priests to get at least one wyssan's off for a unit of S5 T5, and its even better if you happen to grab the curse spell or the amber spear as well to effectively have a cannon or give the enemy a -1 to hit me in my combat.

I take 2 ancient stegs, one on either side of my big unit, both with sharpened horns, and one with the engine to do magic damage while im in combat, provide my unit with a ward save, and make beasts easier for my lvl 2s to cast. Finally, I have 2 units of 10 skink skirmishers to either pepper bigger units, kill smaller units, or act as march/charge blockers or re-directors, allowing me to control which or how many units are thrown into my meat grinder unit. I also take a unit of 8 chamo skinks to try and quickly deal with enemy war machines who might be thinking of targeting my monsters.

In this way, the army is designed to protect my saurus, maximize their potency, and force my enemy to engage. If I lose combat I am stubborn on cold blooded. If I win, it will probably be by a lot. I can grind through unbreakable stuff, and every moment they are stuck in with the saurus I can get more done with my other units if I am smart about it haha

 

Yep.
I've been going with 1 unit of 39 Saurus(spears, and 5-6 wide) and 35 Temple guard, with 1 cowboy, 1 oldblood, 1 skink priest, and the Slaan.
I used to run 50 Saurus, but I wanted a Scar vet in the army.

 

Hey stormtruper-

I have to admit, you make it sound really cool. I find myself wanting to pick up 60 spear saurus just to try some of teh stuff you are talking about. Granted, it would be less effective for me since we don't play with the PF change that you do, but it's still a butt-load of attacks!

Two questions:

1) Correct my if I am wrong, but it sounds like you allow your Burning Alignment damage to work against units in combat. Is that correct?

2) How do you handle Dwellers/Sun/Transmutation and so on?

 

cross your fingers and pray.

in all seriousness tho, if they get off an IF any of those you're screwed. especially if you're playing out of the book with no look out sirs on dwellers, etc.