Tutorial Saurus Warriors.. The tactica?!

You're missing one of the key parts. Savage Beast is seriously broken. Do you stop him getting 3++ or do you stop him getting +3S and +3A?

 

I'm going to leave it here because it is massively off topic. For a similar example look at the guys who came in 5th and 8th at Colonial GT. There's lots of discussion about it on Ulthuan.net if you want. My buddy's being playing variants of that for about 2 years now.

 

He never relies on IF. He's a strict trickle caster. The Savage Beast is actually a ruse like Light of Death. You save all your dice to stop it but in the meantime he's given himself +d3 WS, +d3 BS, and +3-4 Ward save. If you try and stop him from getting his ward save then it opens up the Savage. Also if he's already in combat of knows he will be he can use the Forbidden Rod (with a great ward save usually). Ouch.

 

Yea, it's surprising to see some of the units that our "poor old" saurus can take down. Witch Elves! High Elf elites! A pleasant surprise and one that has me interested in bringing more saurus to the field.

 

While I'm impressed at some of the things saurus can fight point for point, at a high level they have 3 main failings,

1. Combat infantry, when big monsters, Mcav and super characters come to play infantry is worth squat unless it shoots, is really cheap, is a mage bunker or has a trick. PB have -1 to hit and 5++,Savages have a 5++, frenzy and choppas, white lions have win banner, Tz warriors have blasted standard. Saurus have the underwhelming predatory fighter. Saurus don't even get with s6. Either 8pts a model or sub 150pts for an effective unit or it needs a trick to be playable.
2. They are M4, in the era of the elf where flyers and fast cav are king movement 4 doesnt cut it. They struggle to push and most crucially are horrendously vulnerable to the warrior wet dream of the multi charge. 16 is an easy charge for most swiftstride units. Yes dark riders may not beat a saurus unit but them plus a character or two will.
3. I 1, this matters way more than for combat, purple sun is now a unit killer, pit does the same, brass orb, stalkers are all things most combat units dont worry about.

Also a lot of the comparisons are unrealistic, eg. witch elves with cauldron fighting unit with 2 cowboys, just solo out the cowboys into the witchs and watch them go to town, the saurus aren't needed. Versus the Ironguts, you get to fight the unit champ and 2 t5 guys with wards, if you actually can hit the unit your opponent is doing it wrong. Now dont get me wrong I love fielding big units of 40 H/S warriors but I think the days when they could rock the world died with the rise of armour and the loss of the godlike double slann magic phase. Still I'll always have fond memories of them winning tournaments with phas, speed of light and timewarp up.

 

Who wants salami?

Im here to share a doze of cheap way to balance the odds in that Skullcrusher vs Kroxigor matchup..

Whatever formation skullcrushers are set up.

Kroxigor charges or take the charge in 1 wide with champion at the front.. He issue a Challenge and get killed on some initiative step.

Initiative 5: All of the riders can only attack the champion, who is in challenge, so attacks wasted.
Following the initiative course only 2 juggernauts could fight, so they deliver 6 attacks to the rest of the kroxigors.
Run the maths for dealing 3 wounds in 4 attacks of the rider champion.
This is the worst scenario. but you have also denied all the riders attack and one mount attack.

Initiative 2: Your champion is killed by the champion's juggernaut, also all the juggernaut attacks are wasted because they can only strike the champion who is in challenge. So now your champion is killed and your unit only takes 1 model removed. Also the CR generated would be 3 to 5. (2 wounds from rider, 3 max of mount).
Now you attack the unit with 6 attacks. And kept alive the rest of your kroxigors so you can reform to bring'em more b2b as mounts lose their +1 to S so better odds for you.

If the star align themselves, your Champion does not die, He strikes back, your support attack also strikes the unit. You can even win the combat
And you have not only wasted 1 turn of Skullcrushers potential, but 2.
In next phase the challenges keeps going and he must get rid of that filthy Kroxigor champion.

Remember Chaos is forced to Challenge. Is their biggest issue under current ruleset

Back on the topic. It was nice to see at least someone supporting saurus but their bigger issue is that they tend to flee in the first round of combat, not allowing them to balance the odds during the following combat phases.

Also they are so easily tarpited with a smaller footprint than their frontage high AS model. Just as we do with Scarvets / Oldbloods.

Also warhammer is not a game of honour and sportmanship, those maths are done on a front charge, with saurus being wider than the opponent. And is unlikely to happen.
Saurus can be avoided until skinks are death, also forced to pursue some chaff to lose their honorable and fair play match up

Big blocks of saurus = big weakness. You cant hold that spell to be cast and decimate your units.
And you are not safe from vortex in close combat.

My opinion is Saurus warriors are fine, they are a good infantry but out of lizardmen there are so much better things that just stomp them.

People just see this, get bored of removing models of saurus and start considering that no matter what , in combat the infantry would die in droves, so start paying 5 or 7 points per wound, instead of 11.

I field saurus too, but for me they are disposable, ready for exchange pieces.

 

That's why most WoC units do not have a champion in them... unless they are a mage bunker.

That's true, but I think that Lizardmen play the chaff game better than most armies. Skinks have to be amongst the best core chaff in the game.

 

So I was requested to share an example MSU saurus list, this is one I used against two DE and O&G armies, I will add in some highlights after. I do apologize as my memory is bad unless I write things down so this list is probably not 100% accurate, I do not have the book with me to verify points but it should be about 2500.

Oldblood, CO, GW, Armor of Destiny, Dawnstone, Other Tricksters Shard
Oldblood, CO, Piranha blade, Talisman of Endurance, Potion of Strength
Scar Vet BSB, CO, LA, SH, SP, Skavenpelt Banner
Skink Priest lvl1, Dispel Scroll
Skink Priest lvl1, Cube of Darkness
10x Skink Skirmishers w/javs
10x Skink Skirmishers w/javs
15x Saurus w/ST
15x Saurus w/ST
15x Saurus w/ST
15x Saurus w/ST
20x Temple Guard w/FC +Jaguar
7x Cold One Riders w/ST+MU
1x Salamanders w/snack
1x Bastilodon

So for the DE list it was a typical avoidance list, we rolled battle for the pass which I think played in my favor more. I set up my saurus units all 10 wide because there was nothing in his list that could break a 15 saurus unit short of committing both dread lords and master to a single charge with his big warlock unit. It was 2 turns of me just marching up no matter how tempting a charge looked and making sure that I covered the whole board space while placing my characters and support elements in the right spot to deny him from being able to commit the warlocks and all 3 combat characters in one charge. The game ended when he finally tried to break through with a lord and master with the dark riders and failed which I then counter charged, broke, and ran him down, followed by my cold ones eating his warlocks.

The O&G list was a lot of fun, there was a big block of savage big uns, some doom divers, chariots, manglers and other fun items. We rolled watchtower and I knew exactly what I needed to do, first was downplay my cold ones so I purposely flubbed deploying them to where it looked like they were not going to be able to get into combat anytime soon. I then kept my solardon back and not in view of the divers while sending out the random bolt, my saurus moved forward to deal with his army while letting the savage orcs move towards the watchtower. He knew that if he could get frenzied savage orcs into the building it would be very hard to dislodge them, he mainly wanted to keep my OBs from charging them alone which I let him think I was going to do. Eventually he made it within a move into the building, my AoD oldblood managed to take out a mangler and both divers, my BSB left a saurus unit and joined the cold ones that were just getting into the fight, turn 5 I charge the savage orcs with my cold ones, and the temple guard make a swiftstride charge into their corner as well (ranked 5x3 by now). With the solardon I hit first and cause a total of 16 unsaved wounds (My scar vet killed the shaman 1st in initiative order), they hit back, lose combat (no steadfast) and get run down.

 

1) Is this your experience speaking? When I bring saurus to the table it is for two main purposes, first to deny board space and second to crush everyone else’s infantry. Tarpitting other units is useful at times as well as supporting flank charges but that is just a case by case basis. How many HE players bring white lions, a lot? Then that means your saurus are going to make their points just with that one unit, anything else is gravy, the same can be said for most every other army.

2) I’ve heard this quite a lot on this forum and it is getting a little old, use your units outside of the “normal” set up of 6 wide, if you have 20 saurus go 10 wide to control a full 1/6th of the total board width. It only takes 3 turns of marching to push a fast cav army to their own back edge. And who cares if 16 is an easy charge? Saurus are made to get charged and rip the throat out of the person stupid enough to do that. And no a dark rider unit with lord is not enough to beat a saurus unit, through in a hero as well and it is still not enough to move a 20 saurus unit. I’ve had this done to me a lot, I’ve been on the DE side trying to do it to and it turns out very poorly for the elves. Do the math, a fully tooled out dread lord and master with 5x dark riders do 7 unsaved wounds on the charge, the saurus unit is 10 wide and does 4 unsaved wounds to the riders and none to the characters. Saurus lose but are in fact steadfast, they reform to 5 wide and let it grind out until a single OB hits the flank and wins, heck even another saurus unit in the flank adds 5 static CR on the charge, so the two characters left lose by at least 1, possibly more if they fluff their attacks and fail to cause 6 wounds with 7 attacks.

3) And because most combat units don’t worry about it that means most all comers lists don’t bring it. When was the last time you were tabled due to an initiative based thing? I run two OBs and no slann so that I can focus on combat, if my opponent has ultra killer death magic then good luck, you need IF or I’m going to scroll it or have a great chance at a dispel attempt. And even if you get it off there is still a good chance it doesn’t do anything. If you happen to have rolled for the spell, if you happen to have the mobility to get in my face to cast it, and if you happen to IF then I will take it on the face (With my solardon to lesson damage) and next turn crush the person casting which is almost certainly worth more points than the models I lost (ie Morathi). I might get tabled one out of 12 games due to low I, but if that low I unit means I crush my other 11 games then I’m in 100%.
How many turns do you think it will take your solo cowboys to kill that unit and by themselves it is very likely that the one without a re-rollable AS is going to die first. It is much better if you are able to consistently crush your enemies strength up front to do so, delaying and tarpitting are only good tactics when you do not have the ability to win. Saurus have the ability and more, we need to become better generals and use them more effectively and efficiently, when that happens you will see your meta change.

Also my cowboy with piranha blade is going to eat that T5 character while my other cowboy eats the champion, which allows my unit to hit into the ironguts. If you are not able to find a way around this very common ogre tactic then you are doing things wrong.

1) If you find your saurus fleeing in the first round then you are probably building your units wrong, or you are trying to force saurus to play like elf elites which always goes badly. Play saurus with how they work best, don’t try to force them into a style your prefer and the entire game changes. Saurus do not work well against high powered units in sizes less than 30, 40+ is awesome.

2) The difference with saurus being tarpitted is that they are core and so it doesn’t really matter what they are tying up it is all worth it. And they are hard to kill which means they will still be there to allow you to flank charge that tarpit character later. By the way a lot of things that can tarpit other units do not work against saurus, our guys put out a lot more damage than other elite infantry and still can be fielded in high numbers.

3) I am not an honorable player myself, I play by the rules and whenever I can find a loophole I use it, I am not averse to completely annihilating my opponent through any underhanded tactic I know. Everything is part of winning in my mind, from the moment I show up to the table and start unpacking to the words I use and the conversation I have with my opponent is designed to help me win. This is also why I mainly play my brother, he is the only opponent I have found that can give me an equally competitive challenge, we have a ton of fun but it is extremely cutthroat and often gets very heated. Most tournaments and local stores I play at I need to tone it down from my typical play style. The math was done with saurus being charged and they were only wider when they outnumbered the opponent, which is the only likely scenario given those circumstances. Unless we are very poor generals then we will always take our opponents unit size and matchups into consideration when fielding saurus.

4) You may believe there are better things out there, and I certainly love to include other options, but I certainly disagree with you on your viewpoint, as does everyone in my local gaming group since they have been beat time and again with saurus.

 

I don't field a 30 or 40 saurus unit because I don't have them

I saw saurus being run down in first combat many times. But usually against O&G who brings a lot of numbers.

You are right that saurus could fight back, for the example in the white lion combat, those elves are so squishy the problem is facing 20-30 attacks on 3+ 2+ only parry save. They just destroy you and lower your numbers so you strike back with fewer attacks unable to tide the battle into a tie.
Given the situation, yes, you need to bring more saurus than an usual unit of 24 sw

But they are good against white lions because they are squishy. Against any other S5/S6 unit with a little more survavilty they just disappear. You said the example: Savage Orc Big'Uns.

I haven't lose any battle cuz of purple sun yet, but the threat is there. The friend i play against most of the times in our local group has WoC. He always field that pesky Nurgle DP. Which you know... it flies.
Its so hard to counter since he can just charge in the flank or the front, pin your unit there, and start grinding it down. As it is a lone model it doesn't care about 60% of the miscast table. heck, it maybe even help it more with those S10 templates. If not that turn, would be the next, or the next as he could engage in turn 2 if desired.
Purple sun would go through the engaged unit aiming another unit probably stuck with a chaos chariot.

Not only is near unkillable for us in combat, it could kill any of our units, and then there's Purple Sun.
Lizardmen has a rough time with that guy. Now throw skullcrushers, 2 chimera, chaos chariots.
Saurus don't have any chance.
Your bet is to bring more. Ok, They still don't have a chance and you have not taken other options who could help more than saurus just for 1 or 2 more rounds of agony.

Don't get me wrong, im proud of saurus, i know they are the second best infantry in da game. I field them with great result when i know im facing mediocre or poor infantry. But when i know the couldn't stand a chance, I field skinks, in droves.

We played a league at 2400 points with the new atollment of Heroes & Lords.
My list was:
30 skinks full command
24 saurus full command
20 temple guard full command.
10 skirmishers
10 skirmishers
Ancient Stegadon
Skink priest scroll
Skink priest cube
Slann FoM
full equip Oldblood on Carnosaur

They performed well in all games but one, against O&G they were run down in first round
The only game I lose was against WoC.

I would not claim the saurus to be an all comers solution, which they are not. Those are the Skinks.

My favourite army buildings is around Oldbloods. I can't live without them. The frog is for fancy games. I don't get on magic. We are more similar than this thread may say

 

I think we play in vastly different metas which would explain our different view points. I'm a competitive gamer and most of my games are under ETC comp and against ETC players, even on the rare occasion its not tournament or practice both players tend to bring the strongest filth they can. Most list revolve around msu with one hammer unit. The only big infantry(20+) I see are empire bunkers, warriorstars, lionstars, hammererstars, skaven slaves, savage stars, gorstars, skelly buses, zombies and plaguebearer stars. I either dont care about the units(slaves/zombies) enough to bring 400+ points of saurus to handle them or the saurus lose.

As for the Saurus vs Dark riders with 2 characters it works like this. Both guys are on pegs so the front rank is Dreadlord,champ,BSB. they go in and kill some number of guys say 7 from your numbers, the saurus do max 1w back as they kill the champ. If they have 12 DRs(more is common enough) going in they break steadfast and run down your 40 man unit.

Death is still the best lore in the game hands down, no questions asked. 5 out of seven spells are legit game winners so purple sun will always be present. With Nurgle demons, VC, Ogres, CHD, Dwarfs and O&G all being common armies who die in droves to I tests people bring lots of them, not to mention star dragons, kholek and throgg who are very tough to kill unless you can I test them off.

As for catching Morathi with Saurus, I assume thats a joke or you're relying on a combat reform at the end of your opponents turn.

As for my solution to the gutstar, kill the support units, double flee the guts and shoot it and psun(anwser to warhammer!!!). Why fight something that is only good at fighting?

 

I'm glad to know we have more in common than I thought at first and congrats on all the wins it is good to hear when our cold blooded minions win, WoC are certainly the hardest army for me to play against with lizardmen.

If you get more saurus then try them out, against any other S5/S6 unit besides savage orcs they do very well, WoC they will grind down with and eventually lose but it will take a while and I usually can counter charge in after two rounds to help out. Run the numbers against hammererstars and saurus win, same with ogre units, the only good counter against saurus is to not let them hit your unit (which means characters in the front ranks, which increases the unit cost and means your opponent is taking most of his combat power to try and deal with your core allotment)

That Nurgle DP is rough, but as you mentioned Oldbloods are awesome and a good pair going after him once he commits to a combat usually brings him down 1st turn for me. Of course that means I need to field units that can take him for a turn or two, so saurus instead of a skink cloud lol, seems like we just like to play different styles.

And the last time I played WoC his Chimera died against my saurus along with his chariot, sure they hit hard and hurt a lot but I just remove those back ranks and hit back with enough force to kill him by round 2-3. Skullcrushers though, ouch they eat my saurus for snacks, I definitely agree with you on them, for me I use Krox, characters, Stegs to deal with them, but I run enough saurus to be able to throw a unit away to their charge and/or overrun so that I can countercharge.

See I like skinks but for me they are not an all comers list, too many of my opponents know exactly how to crush them, and do it fast, for me to rely on them to win a game, I need a unit that will still be around turn 5-6.

We certainly do play in different metas lol, if you brought kholek or a star dragon to one of my games there would be a whole lot of surprise and a gaping hole where they were fielded by turn 2. Throgg though, he is awesome, his model is killer and his rules are nuts, I love fielding this guy and even playing against him is fun, special characters should all be as effective as he is. But yeah we play hardcore rules and no comps, there is no room for "fair play" or a tournament settting is trying to make things balanced, we also half the time play full end times rules with full unbound that really gets ugly

So when is the last time you fielded 400+ points of saurus against those units? Because I face them a lot and all my opponents know that to win they need to take down my saurus before I get them into combat with their big deathstar, only exception is savage orcs and I don't ever let them keep their frenzy past turn 3 at which point saurus will win.

I've had that DE tactic used a couple times, most of the time they field a lot of smaller DR units instead of larger, but if they do go for larger then I deploy in a staggered pattern with overlapping sectors to counter charge. All it takes is a single saurus character, or skink character in a unit to crush that plan since they hit at a higher I and kill the champ, which is why no one tries that with me anymore, stay 1 step ahead of your opponents plan and always have a solid plan B yourself and these tactics are easy to beat. That DE unit either charges a saurus unit it can break and then it gets counter charged or it hits a saurus unit it can't break and gets crushed in 3 turns. I keep hearing the same old DE tactics on this forum, and it feels like we are just not adapting our own play styles to beat them, if the tactic feels like a gimmick it probably is and that is easy to overcome, be flexible in your play and mentally adapt, don't get caught in a rutt and always look for a unique solution.

I agree, death is awesome, it is not the best for everyone but I would say yes it is the best overall, and even still I have not had trouble dealing with I test spells, how many times in the last 3 tournaments have you been tabled by them?

No I have never caught Morathi with saurus, but I have caught her with other things after she tried and failed to get a spell off that would have walked down my battle line, it is all about set up, and a lot of the time luring my opponent into a trap by offering up something they think is too good to pass up or a mistake on my part.

that is an excellent solution to the gutstar, but between my way or yours if both result in a win I'm going to take the run up and hit them repeatedly in the face until their aggression stops answer lol

Sorry this post is so long, I love these discussions and feel everyone has so many good things to add that I like to address all of them. There is no wrong way to play warhammer but there are better ways to play certain units

 

He he he I hope I can absorb all the information because my next game will be against the raiders from Naggaroth. Hopefully I can get back their bones to Lustria to make beautiful weapons from them. >>Elfenbein<<