8th Ed. shooting through and over skirmishers in 8th

[Xul]

Hi guys, been a while, since I was last here...
Preparing to play the 8th ed, we came upon 1 interesting point: considering the new LoS ruling, it should be possible to shoot through a skirmisher unit (in their loose formation) at another unit behind the skirmishers. probably not all of the models of the shooting unit would have LoS, but some would. this makes skirmishers completely useless at covering other units from shooting attacks. even worse, if applied to skinks, those wouldn't provide any cover at all, as they are lower than saurus, makeing it possible for the whole shooting unit (if higher than skinks - e.g. men, elves, etc...) to shoot at the unit behind the skirmishers. what is your view?

 

[Eagleblaze]

If the majority of the unit is obscured then it is hard cover so that's -2 to hit. If it is just partially obscured you might be able to claim soft cover if your opponent agrees that doing so is fair. The book isn't particularly well written and this is a bit open IMO.

 

[Caneghem]

Copy and pasted from my post on Podhammer forums...

If you go by the exact letter of the rulebook, it is pretty clear, but a bit complicated. It talks about cover with respect to a single model firing, not for a whole unit firing. So some shots might take the cover penalty, while others do not. It means you'll roll two batches of shots for one unit firing, but really if you want to go for RAW that is how you do it, and it even mentions rolling two batches of dice.

Example 1:
10 handgunners want to shoot at a unit of 6 knights, which has a screen of dogs in front of it. For each of the handgunners, you would get down and approximate how much of the knight unit you can see. Say the four outermost handgunners can see at least 3 of the knights totally. Those four shots would be resolved with no cover save. The other 6 handgunners can see less than half of the knight unit, so take a -2 hard cover save (shooting through units counts as hard cover).

Example 2:
A griffon is hiding behind a low hill. A group of archers at the other end of the field wants to take it out of action. You would have to figure out if the hill covers half of the model, from the eye level of the archers. You determine the griffon is less than half covered, so no cover penalty applies.

Example 3:
A unit of skirmishers is screening a block of heavy infantry, and you want to shoot the infantry with crossbowmen. You get down eye level for each crossbowman and see if you can see half or more of the infantry unit. You find your crossbowmen actually can't see half or more of the target unit, and all would take the -2 penalty. You suddenly realize skirmish screening is still pretty good.

Important note: When determining if you can see 50% or more of a unit, you DO have to take into account how much of each model you are seeing. For example, knights hiding behind infantry... you would quite likely see the helmeted head of each knight model. But you are only seeing about 10% of each knight model, therefore about 10% of the unit in total. Yes, this could cause some conflict, but remember that ties go to the shooter. That is, 50% coverage is still no penalty. So if you and your opponent can't call it either way, always give the shooter the advantage.

 

[Xul]

that example with skirmishers blocking L0S for shooting on heavy infantry is not exactly RAW. you are saying the shooting unit can see for example 50% of the target. that is not correct. only some models in the shooting unit can probably see part of the target. some would not see any of it (through the gaps in the skirmisher unit). and so wouldn't be able to shoot at all. the GW guys tried to simplify the LOS rules with the "real LOS" ruling, but it turns out things are not that simple.

 

[Caneghem]

that example with skirmishers blocking L0S for shooting on heavy infantry is not exactly RAW. you are saying the shooting unit can see for example 50% of the target. that is not correct. only some models in the shooting unit can probably see part of the target. some would not see any of it (through the gaps in the skirmisher unit). and so wouldn't be able to shoot at all. the GW guys tried to simplify the LOS rules with the "real LOS" ruling, but it turns out things are not that simple.

There are a lot of factors that come into it.. like how many ranks deep the skirmishers are etc. My example was just one scenario. I'm not sure where you got that I was saying the shooters could see 50% of the heavy infantry through the skirmishers. I was saying all the crossbowmen could see some of the target unit, but nobody could see 50% or more. So all would be at a -2. I doubt any of the shooters would be 100% obstructed if you are using true line of sight. Remember that a model's base no longer blocks line of sight. So even though a shooter doesn't have a clear shot down the gap of a skirmisher unit, he'd still see the unit behind the skirmishers.

Think for example of skinks screening in front of saurus. No matter what, you'd be able to see the saurus unit because they're just taller critters. But you'd get the -2 penalty.

 

[Xul]

I was referring to example #3 - and you are right I was not quite precise - you say in there the shooters can see less than 50%... it really depends on the positioning and I think there would be cases, where some models wouldn't see at all through the skirmishers. but that is not the point. the problem is, that there is a lot of room for interpretation, disputes and disagreement with the new LOS ruling, as there is no precise way to tell, what a model really "can see", as it is not measurable (2 people looking from the model's perspective can have 2 views and there is no way to measure which 1 of them is right). - that's what I wanted to point out. of course, it depends on who you play with