1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

8th Ed. Skinks can screen monsters from cannons. change my mind.

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Discussion' started by Karnus, Aug 5, 2019.

  1. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,670
    Likes Received:
    4,577
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A 3mm IRON cannonball would weigh 55 Pounds.

    The biggest historical smoothbore cannon fired 42 pound cannon balls.
     
    Paradoxical Pacifism likes this.
  2. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,670
    Likes Received:
    4,577
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Park the Skink unit and angle it or reform it as required so the the bases of the models cover this opponent’s preferred aim point.

    Form them three wide; ten deep if you have to.
     
    Paradoxical Pacifism likes this.
  3. Karnus
    Razordon

    Karnus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    63
    It’s s good idea but there is nothing to stop him aiming at the skinks themselves to achieve the same thing. I think it has to be a line of sight thing to avoid the “target” being hit
     
  4. airjamy
    Terradon

    airjamy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    365
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I agree. Maybe they should have done something like letting cannon crews making an modified BS roll before they would be allowed to shoot, with the whole getting in range part being the "wounding" part of the deal. Perhaps getting a +1 to hit monsters, while giving cannon crew around BS4 (it makes sense you would use elite marksmen as your cannon crews). Then you could also use the normal rules of soft cover, etc, perhaps make exceptions that skirmishers could not get their regular -1 due to cannon balls being significantly larger and fast than arrows.
     
  5. Karnus
    Razordon

    Karnus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I’m going to get a laser pointer set up and test my theory
     
    ASSASSIN_NR_1 likes this.
  6. Asamu
    Temple Guard

    Asamu Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    263
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I don't think this works with true line of sight, since there are gaps between the models they can see through.
     
  7. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    6,407
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The actual problem is that in real life cannons were NEVER this accurate. Sure, nowadays we have targetting systems, etc. but black powder period? I mean you're shovelling powder into the muzzle of the gun and estimating angles. It was definitely not a science.

    Unfortunately, I agree with @NIGHTBRINGER the rules as written mean that the Skinks can't block line of sight to the Carnosaur and nowhere in the rules does it say they need LOS to the spot on the ground.
     
  8. Karnus
    Razordon

    Karnus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I am sorry that is incorrect.

    P10 of the BRB regarding line of sight: "you must be able to trace an unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body (i.e. the head, torso, arms or legs) of the target.

    P39 of the BRB regarding shooting: "The shooting model must be able to trace a line of sight to the target"

    P109 of the BRB regarding shooting with war machines: "Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point (i.e. its muzzle or crossbar, in the same way for its range)

    P112 of the BRB regarding choosing a target with a cannon: "Nominate a point within the war machine's line of sight and that is not outside the cannon's maximum range. Your target does not have to be an enemy model; it can be a point on the ground if you wish."

    You certainly require line of sight to the spot on the ground.

    I challenge you to try and trace an unblocked line of sight through a unit of chaos warriors or another equally busy unit from muzzle height. Then apply that logic to other units, or even a small wall halfway across the battlefield etc
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
    hardyworld and Lizards of Renown like this.
  9. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    6,407
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ha! Okay okay okay! :) I submit!

    It's interesting. I realized I was assuming the cannons were on a hill. I guess the scenarios you've been talking about are with the cannon on level ground? Interesting... never thought about that...

    In that case, I would argue the skink point with you. If they can't see the spot, then they couldn't target it.
     
  10. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    6,407
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Also, it would nullify the large target point unless he was aiming AT the Carnosaur. Since you're not obscuring the large target, but the point on the ground between them! I like it!

    Just watch out for hills in deployment zones...
     
  11. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    43,548
    Likes Received:
    129,009
    Trophy Points:
    113
    As I've stated before, it is pretty easy to draw true line of sight from a cannon through intervening models such as skinks. I agree with @Karnus that you must be able to draw line of sight to the point at which you are aiming (whether that is a model or a spot on the ground).

    So it simply comes down to this:
    • take a laser pointer and place it at the muzzle of the cannon
    • if you can make the laser hit the spot you which to aim at, you have fulfilled the requirements of true line of sight
    My point is that it is easy to aim that laser over (cannons are typically placed on hills), between models or through various parts (between legs, under an arm, over a shoulder, etc.) of a small unit of skinks (don't even get me started if they are skirmishers). If the unit is of sufficient size or the fates align perfectly it is possible, but you only need a millimetre or two of a gap to get that laser pointer through. With a unit of Chaos Warriors, who are very bulky models and are tightly condensed, it is a reasonable tactic. However, for a weedy little unit like Skinks, I don't view it as a viable, reliable and consistently repeatable tactic.
     
    Lizards of Renown likes this.
  12. Karnus
    Razordon

    Karnus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I agree, however my point is that it is POSSIBLE to do

    Yes it would render the large target rule pointless, however due to a cannon working like a template, the large target rule doesn’t come into effect anyway.
     
    Lizards of Renown likes this.
  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    43,548
    Likes Received:
    129,009
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Agreed. Improbable but definitely possible!
     
    Lizards of Renown likes this.
  14. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    6,407
    Likes Received:
    15,446
    Trophy Points:
    113
    By the way, @Karnus , I meant to ask if you've now tried this tactic out?

    (Mental note: Buy myself a laser pointer ;))
     
  15. Tk'ya'pyk
    Carnasaur

    Tk'ya'pyk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,359
    Likes Received:
    4,217
    Trophy Points:
    113
    ..and regardless, cannonballs bounce up to what, 10"? Even if the unit DOES block line-of-sight, it is still possible for the cannonball to bounce THROUGH the unit and hit the carnosaur ANYWAY, unless the unit is at least that deep. I mean, you put enough of a gap between them and you'd be fine I suppose, but if you're going for RAW, yes, you need to see the spot of ground you're aiming at. A well-placed unit of skink skirmishers could block LOS to the ground, but NOT to the Carnosaur itself? Hmm...
     
  16. Karnus
    Razordon

    Karnus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I haven’t yet! Bloody social distancing rules here in the uk seems to be lasting forever! Didn’t get a single game in last year and hell knows when we’ll be able to this year... :(

    The line of sight blockers don’t have to be anywhere near the carnosaur in order to block line of sight to the spot the cannon would need to see in order to hit the carnosaur (That is a terrible sentence!).

    I don’t know what happens if they aim for the carnosaur itself? Can a cannon even do it now that I think about it?
     
    Lizards of Renown likes this.
  17. Tk'ya'pyk
    Carnasaur

    Tk'ya'pyk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,359
    Likes Received:
    4,217
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If the cannon is on a hill, yes. Hill lets the cannon see over the intervening unit.
     
    Lizards of Renown likes this.
  18. Karnus
    Razordon

    Karnus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Well yeah, that does rely on there being a hill for the cannon to be deployed on (which is a terrible idea). We rarely play with hills simply because siege equipment is relatively overpowered as is in 8th edition.
     
    Lizards of Renown likes this.

Share This Page