8th Ed. Skrox vs Saurus

[Qupakoco]

Is anyone a statistician? I would like to know the statistical killing/staying power of a unit of skrox (say 20 skinks and 3 krox) opposed to a unit of 20 saurus.

Benefits of a Skrox Unit (20 + 3 models):

1. Cause Fear and are therefore immune to it.
2. Movement 6"
3. Stand and shoot (w/poison)
4. 3 Krox = 9 S6 attacks, plus 8 (or 10?) skink attacks
5. 12" poisonous shooting
6. Immune to Stomp
7. Immune to Killing Blow
8. Immune to 13th Spell (skaven)
9. Count as Core
10. Krox are unkillable in CC until most of the skinks are dead
11. Aquatic

Benefits of a Saurus Unit (20 models):

1. S4 T4
2. 15+ attacks with -1 AS
3. Leadership of 8
4. Count as core
5. Historically proven to hold up against most units in CC
6. Probably something I forgot...

Maybe I am being biased. Any thoughts? I haven't played with a skox unit enough to be confident that they are better. I know the biggest benefit of Saurus is their Strength and Toughness. Skinks are pretty weak in comparison, but do the Kroxigor make up for it?

 

[Scalenex]

If you don't have a Slann BSB, Scar Vets make better BSBs than Skink Chiefs. So that's a small plus in the Saurus column, since a Scar Vet is an ackward fit with a skink block.

 

[n810]

"Skinks are poisonous"

Note: Skink shooting is poisionus, close combat is not.

 

[Eladimir]

Make up the blocks and run some fake combats vs other units to test

But theorycrafting, its all about who they face.
Ignoring the damage they do for the moment, heres how they get hurt:

VS WS3 S3 T3 Basic Infantry
-Saurus come out as the big winners
The Saurus are hit on 4's, Wounded on 5's, 4+/6++ Save
The Skinks are hit on 3's, Wounded on 3's, 6+/6++ Save

VS WS4 S6 T4 Elite Infantry
-Skinks come out as the big winnters
The Saurus are hit on 3's, Wounded on 2's, 6++ Save
The Skinks are hit on 3's, Wounded on 2's, 6++ Save

Despite the Saurus being worth more than double the points per model they are wounded in the exact same way vs most GW troops.

 

[vapor]

The problem with trying to do straight stats as a comparison is that they are used different ways. Skrox are fast and really shine when you can use their speed to get flank charges, and as Eladimir showed, to hit elite units. They're also great against monsters since they cannot be stomped and can toss out both poison shots and S6 attacks.

 

[Qupakoco]

Scar Vets make better BSBs than Skink Chiefs

Very true. Plus they are capable of surviving challenges if given the proper equipment.

Skink shooting is poisionus, close combat is not

I guess I got a little carried away with making the list.

Despite the Saurus being worth more than double the points per model they are wounded in the exact same way vs most GW troops.

Ahh. That is interesting. I have been relying on my Saurus to take out some of those heavy hitters. I think I'm going to switch things up a little.

The problem with trying to do straight stats as a comparison is that they are used different ways. Skrox are fast and really shine when you can use their speed to get flank charges, and as Eladimir showed, to hit elite units. They're also great against monsters since they cannot be stomped and can toss out both poison shots and S6 attacks.

I completely agree. You guys have really helped clear some things up for me. I think I was suddenly overcome with all the special rules that Skox units have.

I think I'm going to try running two blocks of Saurus supported by a Skrox unit on each side for my next battle.

 

[Eladimir]

Yeah to make a long story short on the Skrox vs Saurus battle is there is clearly a place for both and I think we should be taking some of each in any army set.

 

[Dog On Todd]

What about something tricky like Sword Masters?

wound saurus on 3+ (vs 2+), but the higher initiative of the skinks means no re-rolls.

Rerolls and 3+ to wound? Or no re-rolls, but 2+ to wound? Same to hit, but skroxx is marginally fewer points (depending how big).

For me it comes down to characters that fit in the unit.

 

[Turtleneck]

sword master fall easily to skinks poison and salamander shots , some units just have to be shot, check your priority s for shoting and magic,
tho this opend my eyes for the skrox units might just have to test it

 

[Pyre]

Generally, against anything that's Strength 6+ and Weapon Skill 4+ you should use the SKrox. They loose less "points per wound" and will end up with the same defenses as the Saurus. Anything that Strength 5 or less should probably be handled by the Saurus since their armor and Toughness will still make a difference.

Examples? Witch Elves with hatred, poison, and LOTS of attacks should be taken with Saurus since their armor will help over all and their toughness helps with non-poison hits. Executioners with a single Strength 6 killing blow attack each should get the SKrox who will net have the same defenses as the Saurus but are immune to Killing Blow and loose less with each wound.

SKrox are generally better against anything with Stomp or Thunderstomp, unless the Saurus can kill it quickly. The problems with Saurus in that case is that the free hits from the stomps will start to wear over long combat.

Well that was probably just restating the obvious, but hey it made me feel better to contribute something!


Pyre

 

[Scalenex]

Generally, against anything that's Strength 6+ and Weapon Skill 4+ you should use the SKrox. They loose less "points per wound" and will end up with the same defenses as the Saurus. Anything that Strength 5 or less should probably be handled by the Saurus since their armor and Toughness will still make a difference.

Pyre

I'm trying to figure out what to field against dwarves which is usually 2/3 warriors/miners with S5 attacks and WS 4, 1/3 WS 5 S6. I'm still working on combinations and deployments to beat dwarves. That stat breakdown is helpful, but I think it's mainly (in the absense of enemy Stompls) is about whether your battleplan can benefit from the mobility granted by M6 or not.

 

[Pyre]

I'm trying to figure out what to field against dwarves which is usually 2/3 warriors/miners with S5 attacks and WS 4, 1/3 WS 5 S6. I'm still working on combinations and deployments to beat dwarves. That stat breakdown is helpful, but I think it's mainly (in the absense of enemy Stompls) is about whether your battleplan can benefit from the mobility granted by M6 or not.

Yeah I was just throwing in the stat commentary since others had mentioned the mobility and other factors already.

Against that dwarf set-up, a lot depends on armor. If my guess is right most of those blocks only have heavy armor, which would swing things back toward using Saurus since the volume of attacks and low armor save would probably work out better that the fewer high strength attacks from the SKrox. Haven't done the math on it though.


Pyre

 

[Bananmats]

To be honest, ive never played with Skrox

How does the FAQ ; Page 53 – Kroxigors, Great Reach
Ignore this special rule.

Effect? Dont have to put Krox in the first row ?

 

[Qupakoco]

The Kroxigor still have the Spawn-Kin special rule, which says they are always placed in the second row of a unit of skinks unless too few skinks remian.

 

[Bananmats]

But that should only give them 1 attack each ?

 

[Arli]

No, monstrous infantry get 3 attacks from supporting attacks. Also, because the great reach rule is removed, nothing can touch the Kroxigors in CC unless the skinks in the front (side or rear) are gone.

 

[Bananmats]

ohh right, so they actually buffed em

Lets hope for some Finecast model soon.

 

[Ronisman]

I'm trying to figure out what to field against dwarves which is usually 2/3 warriors/miners with S5 attacks and WS 4, 1/3 WS 5 S6. I'm still working on combinations and deployments to beat dwarves. That stat breakdown is helpful, but I think it's mainly (in the absense of enemy Stompls) is about whether your battleplan can benefit from the mobility granted by M6 or not.

Against that dwarf set-up, a lot depends on armor. If my guess is right most of those blocks only have heavy armor, which would swing things back toward using Saurus since the volume of attacks and low armor save would probably work out better that the fewer high strength attacks from the SKrox. Haven't done the math on it though.

I was actually a statistics major in college so I like looking at these sorts of things lol

Against dwarf warriors with great weapons let's say: WS=4 T=4 AS=5+
I guess those are the stat lines you're up against; I don't actually have dwarves though.

Anyhow, against this using a 5x4 block of saurus, you have about a 63% chance to cause 3 unsaved wounds (so they fail their armor save and die) and around a 38% chance to cause 4 unsaved wounds.

With the 3 krox alone, you've got near 80% chance to take out 3, roughly 56% chance to remove 4 dwarves, and a 30% chance to remove 5.

Adding in your 6 skink attacks in the front rank to the kroxigor, you've got about a 50-50 chance to kill one more dwarf lol (go skinks!)

Also, if you let the dwarves charge you, on average you're gonna kill one more with a stand and shoot.

Dwarves charge your block, in the first round of combat saurus take out 3, maybe 4. Skrox kill 6 or 7. Assuming nobody runs, saurus will continue to kill about 3 on average, skrox hover around 5 to 6.

So the skrox are gonna kill more dwarves per round. This has already been said in this thread I believe, but with great weapons, those warriors are hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's regardless of if you're a skink or a saurus, and you aren't getting an armor save either way.

Movement 6 and throwing weapons too? I'd take the skrox man.

 

[Qupakoco]

I was actually a statistics major in college so I like looking at these sorts of things lol

Hooray! Just the person I was looking for. Thanks for the info.

Also, I recently found an app for android called "WarStat". It lets you run scenarios like this, varying stat lines and number of attacks and such. It's pretty awesome.