8th Ed. Slann Cupped hands, Life

[Puhnupetteri]

Hello

We had argue about how the rules work on cupped hands. I was wondering if anyone can clear the rule.. And please do not type only "YES it works like this blaablaa" or NO ... If you can clarify where that rule comes or why do you think it works like you think would be great =)

Thanks !

So to question
1. IF i roll misscast with slann. And i use Cupped Hands can i roll the misscast table result and then move cupped hands to enemy?

2. IF i roll misscast with slann and i have LORE of life and throne of vines do i have to roll 2+ ignore BEFORE i can move cupped hands on enemy. Because Throne of vines describes (on 2+ the miscast is ignored)..

3. If i roll misscast and give it to character that can reroll misscast (example High elf magic item) can they reroll result (As i see its slann misscast not Highelf magic'ans miscast)...

4. IF i roll misscast and give it to teclis does it affect him? As u all know teclis is immune to misscast by some special rule wich i cant recall...

Thank you! =)

 

[Arli]

Hello

We had argue about how the rules work on cupped hands. I was wondering if anyone can clear the rule.. And please do not type only "YES it works like this blaablaa" or NO ... If you can clarify where that rule comes or why do you think it works like you think would be great =)

Thanks !

So to question
1. IF i roll misscast with slann. And i use Cupped Hands can i roll the misscast table result and then move cupped hands to enemy?

As stated in the rule book and in the FAQ, you roll the result on the miscast table, then roll for cupped hands.

2. IF i roll misscast with slann and i have LORE of life and throne of vines do i have to roll 2+ ignore BEFORE i can move cupped hands on enemy. Because Throne of vines describes (on 2+ the miscast is ignored)..
No, you do not. As per the Lizardmen FAQ, it is your choice. However, If you chose to use cupped hands, you cannot then use the lore of life 2+


3. If i roll misscast and give it to character that can reroll misscast (example High elf magic item) can they reroll result (As i see its slann misscast not Highelf magic'ans miscast)...
No, they cannot as it is not the miscast that you are passing to them but the effect thatyou rolled for your miscast (this is why you lose the power dice associated with the miscast).


4. IF i roll misscast and give it to teclis does it affect him? As u all know teclis is immune to misscast by some special rule wich i cant recall...
Yes, it is the effect that you are transfering, not a miscast.


Thank you! =)

 

[Eladimir]

Nicely put arli

 

[Cravenus]

i could've sworn i posted here earlier....

in the Core FAQ(1.3) they describe that the 2+ throne save occurs as the miscast is occurring, while the 2+ cupped save is after its rolled for(via the LM FAQ1.3). please explain why they couldn't both stack as they both appear to be happening at different times.

~lets just ignore this post.~

 

[Arli]

Here is how I look at it:

You cast the spell with IF:

You then reslove the spell. After that, you have the choice to a) use throne of vines (because in order to use cupped hands, you have to roll on the miscast table first) or b) use cupped hands.

That being said, you can use cupped hands if Throne of vines fails or you can choose to take the miscast and hope to use cupped hands successfully. You cannot use cupped hands then throne of vines because due to the order in which you resolve the miscast in relation to throne of vines.

I hope that answers the question.

Clear as mud, right?

 

[Coatl]

1) Cast Spell
-spell goes off IF
2) Resolve Spell
3) Resolve Miscast
- roll your 2+ ToV to ignore
- if you fail or choose not to use it, roll on the Miscast table
- roll your 2+ cupped to distribute the EFFECT

it is actually fairly clear. the ToV roll happens before you roll on the miscast table, the cupped roll happens after. your transfering the effect of said miscast, not the miscast itself (why it says in the FAQ that the caster still loses the D6 power dice). this is not an interpretation, this is simply applying the order in which these things occur. if cupped said "apply the miscast" then id agree to being able to use ToV because it would happen before you rolled on the table, but it says "apply the result of the miscast"

 

[Cravenus]

Arli's interpretation of it is clear yes, not saying it isn't. but its still an interpretation, just like it would be if I said that it can be argued you get both, because you can take the throne roll before the miscast roll. both are perfectly legal as the rules are written. I was just asking if he had some source I didn't know about, some other FAQ I didn't see or maybe some GW ruling that didn't get into the FAQ for some reason etc.

As far as I can see it's perfectly legal both ways, with both rolls, or 1 roll, it seems entirely up to the players, but I'd like to point out that they could've put less ambiguous wording into their FAQ.

And as for the whole caster losing power dice, its still my opinion they don't as cupped hands gives the whole miscast to the target, they just don't have a power pool to lose dice from. Also keeping in mind that the LM player ignores the miscast, as per cupped hands thus ignoring any die loss.
By all means correct me with proof if you think I'm wrong.

~and this one~

 

[Coatl]

the power dice loss is in the latest FAQ i believe, ill have a look when i get home. i agree the wording is a little vague, but the order of events is what makes what arli and I are saying correct and not just an interpretation. if you have ToV on your slann and also have cupped hands, you get both rolls, i agree with that. they happen at specific points in the casting of a spell and dont conflict with each other in that sense. the problem comes with when you give your opponent the result of the miscast. ToV works for ignoring the miscast roll, not the result thats already been generated and passed on. The same thing applies to you should you happen to fail the cupped 2+. you don't get to turn around and say "o well im going to try and ignore the miscast now". youve already made the roll on the table, the miscast is being resolved when you used cupped hands. ToV happens before the miscast table roll, cupped hands happens during the miscast table roll. this ain't golf, you get no mulligans

 

[HoverBoy]

Wish Arli was there when i posted that before.

 

[Jahonnes]

Hello

2. IF i roll misscast with slann and i have LORE of life and throne of vines do i have to roll 2+ ignore BEFORE i can move cupped hands on enemy. Because Throne of vines describes (on 2+ the miscast is ignored)..
No, you do not. As per the Lizardmen FAQ, it is your choice. However, If you chose to use cupped hands, you cannot then use the lore of life 2+

But the Throne of Vines spell says "Every time the wizard miscasts, roll a dice. On a 2+ the miscast is ignored."

So every time slann miscasts you have to roll the ToV effect.

And please tell me, where on the LM FAQ does it say that you choose in wich order Magic Items, and spell effects are resolved. It only says that you can choose in wich order the effects of Magical items are applied. The spell effects still go by the spell rules.

 

[Arli]

I base my reasoning on this (from the Lizardmen FAQ):

Q. There are several items that can affect miscasts, such as Cupped
Hands of the Old Ones, Soul of Stone and Infernal Puppet. If more
than one (or multiples of the same item) are present, in what order
should the effects be applied? (p102)
A. The player whose turn is taking place chooses.


I treat Throne of Vines as an "item."

 

[Jahonnes]

I base my reasoning on this (from the Lizardmen FAQ):

Q. There are several items that can affect miscasts, such as Cupped
Hands of the Old Ones, Soul of Stone and Infernal Puppet. If more
than one (or multiples of the same item) are present, in what order
should the effects be applied? (p102)
A. The player whose turn is taking place chooses.

Yes, you can choose in wich order to use items. But still ToVs description says "Every time the wizard miscasts, roll a dice. On a 2+ the miscast is ignored." So every time you roll a miscast, you roll the dice. If you roll 1, you may then choose what items to use in any order you like.

ed.

Q. There are several items that can affect miscasts, such as Cupped
Hands of the Old Ones, Soul of Stone and Infernal Puppet. If more
than one (or multiples of the same item) are present, in what order
should the effects be applied? (p102)
A. The player whose turn is taking place chooses.

Several ITEMS. ToV is not an item so you cannot choose not to use it. You must roll the dice, and if you roll 2 or more the miscast is ignored.

 

[Cravenus]

Johannes you can make that roll after cupped hands, but if you roll a 2+ on the cup the miscast is ignored anyways.

I may have compeltely misread arlis 1st post(it happens)

if arli is in fact stating you can stack throne and cupped hands, and that throne can be rolled for anytime in the miscast step even after cupped hands, then i withdraw all complaints to him, otherwise continue as normal.

hurpa derp.
(wow i suck)

I do still question his interpretation that the miscast only transfers effects of the miscast not the miscast itself(and thus bypassing other characters immunities) but unless we play a game together, i don't think it'll be a problem.

 

[Jahonnes]

"On 2+ the miscast is ignored an if there is enemy wizard withn the line of sight he will suffer its effects, ignoring results 5-6." Its slanns miscast, the enemy only suffers its effects. So in my opinion he may not use any antimiscast spells/items.

Arli was right about that.

 

[theodmino]

Yeh, I have to aska stupid question here. What do they mean by "Ignoring results 5-6"?

 

[Cravenus]

thats actually ignored as per the new LM FAQ, you you don't ignore the 5-6 result.

in the previous edition a 5-6 allowed the opposing player to cast a spell targeting the active player, so you can see how that would just be ignored, in the new edition its something else.