Star Trek vs. Star Wars (and a collection of memes)

Technically, if you consider that the Sith are usually only a handful of members at BEST (and normally just two), killing all of the Jedi DOES technically bring balance. You're dropping the number of Jedi down to match the number of Sith...

 

https://www.starwars.com/news/the-lego-star-wars-holiday-special-disney-plus-announce

 

Just watched "The Rise of Skywalker" @NIGHTBRINGER

Was okay, but I couldn't get past several severe unrealities and plot holes the size of the death star...



Not happy

 

If by okay, you mean a complete dumpster fire and a sad excuse for a Star Wars movie, then we are in perfect agreement.

 

I feel like this toaster should only have a burned toast option...

 

It’s once again time for one of @ravagekitteh ’s immensely long winded arguments. Yay!

I was looking at this again today and it got me thinking: everyone likes to make a big deal at how “overpowered” Rey is, but actually I think in the context of the Star Wars universe as whole, she would only be ranked in the middle to lower levels of the Jedi in skills. To be clear, this isn’t a discussion on whether she’s a Mary Sue - that’s a different debate that’s related more to storytelling than actual power. In that regard I would consider her a minor Mary Sue but not as much as some people would argue. This is instead where she would rank in terms of actual power - would she win in a fight etc?

I think the key thing in this is that we only ever see her in the context of the galaxy in the Sequel Trilogy. The only force users that really offer direct comparison are her, Kylo Ren and Luke, so her force abilities are always judged based on how they compare to them. In that regard, she could arguably be seen to be slightly better than them (or at least Kylo). However, I think the thing people seem to miss is that, actually, they are not very powerful in the overall Star Wars universe.

Luke Skywalker is by no means bad, but in the context of the Jedi overall I would judge him to be thoroughly average. His lightsaber skills are very unrefined and his force powers are extremely basic. Granted he managed to defeat Vader, but I think it’s safe to say Vader was very much holding back in the fight - that performance versus any major force user who wanted him gone would have resulted in a very swift death. In The Last Jedi he is shown to be slightly more advanced, but there is still nothing to indicate any major increase in power. This “mediocrity” is mitigated in the both the Original Trilogy and the Sequels because in them he’s pretty much the only Jedi left, but compared to most other force users he is distinctly lacking. And yet in the Sequels Rey is very much implied to only be around the same level as him. If anything, he is arguably depicted as slightly stronger than her. Logically then, that would place her overall abilities as slightly below average.

Of course the comparison with Luke is a pretty sketchy one - we don’t really see that much of what he can do or how his power compares to hers in the films. Instead the more significant comparison is with Kylo Ren. The thing is though, I think it’s justified to say that Kylo Ren’s abilities are beneath even Luke’s by the time he’s at his Sequel level power. I think the best comparison is with Savage Oppress. They both seem to have had fairly rudimentary training, neither of their lightsaber techniques seem very refined or skilful, and while they can demonstrate some decent force powers they are hardly anything that remarkable, particularly by typical dark side standards. If anything I would argue that Savage is more powerful than Kylo - he at least had the raw strength to break through enemies defences with his heavy strokes, while Kylo seems to lack even that. And Savage himself probably only ranks in the bottom half of force users - when not backed up by Maul’s highly superior abilities, Savage got his arm cut off by Kenobi and was pretty much instantly dispatched by Sidious. Once again, I would argue that the only reason Kylo comes across well is because there is literally no competition by the time he’s around.

With this in mind, it is now probably worth going through Rey’s major achievements.

Piloting/Mechanics: Probably the first of her abilities to be demonstrated, Rey is established to be fairly good at flying and a competent mechanic. In universe, both of these are justified - when not working, it has been said been made clear that she spends as much time as possible on flight sims. She is also a scavenger - to be able to make any money in that profession at all, it would be necessary for her to have a strong understanding of mechanics purely so that she would know wha was actually worth anything. However, neither of these skills are particularly remarkable compared to others who are known to be good at them. Rey has only ever been in flight combat against generic TIE pilots - enemies that are easy to take out for anyone with the slightest whiff of force sensitivity. None of her moves where that amazing and even ignoring other Jedi there are dozens of non-Force sensitive pilots who could hand her her arse on a plate with their eyes closed if they went up against each other starfighter to starfighter. Likewise the saga is full of skilled mechanics (Anakin built a working pod racer and droid at age nine for goodness sake) - it isn’t exactly amazing for a scavenger (who would have a far greater understanding of the individual properties of components) to be able to beat an out of practise pilot (who only knows them in the context of ships) to the punch with a maintenance recommendation. I’d say her skills in this field are mediocre at best.

Force powers: The next abilities she demonstrates are the the ability to reverse a mind probe, and later on, perform a mind trick on 007 disguised as a Stormtrooper (that was Daniel Craig under the mask!). The mind probe may not be anything even remotely special - that is the only instance I’m aware of that the technique has been used on a force sensitive individual - all other victims weren’t force sensitive. There is every likelihood that the process involves a two way pathway that any force user could manipulate - if that is the case, even the lowliest youngling could have turned the tables, and the only reason Kylo would have been surprised by it is because he’d never tried it on a force user before and/or didn’t know she was sensitive. The mind trick is a slightly more advanced technique (Ezra Bridger would take a long time to master it in his training for example). However, Rey does have the advantage of being both aware of the force and the concept for some time, and also having more time to mature both mentally and with her powers. Within a day of learning of the force, Luke was able to successfully deflect blaster bolts and score one in a million shots, all the while having no clue what he was supposed to be doing. In comparison, Rey being successful in trying out a technique she already knew of isn’t that much of an achievement. The final major force power she shows is lifting the rocks in TLJ. Again, this doesn’t constitute any real demonstration of skill or power - Baby Yoda for example was able to lift an enormous beast while having the world awareness of about a two year old at most; even without the training she had already received, lifting some rocks isn’t much of an achievement in comparison.

Combat: Now comes the important part. There are four main battles to take into account here: the Starkiller base fight , the throne room duel, the second Rey v Kylo duel and the fight against Palpatine. The Starkiller duel is probably the one that’s been explored the most already. It is made fairly clear that the force is supposed to be possessing Rey at that point, which explains her new found skills. Furthermore, Ren had already been wounded earlier. As stated before, Kylo is hardly the most skilled duellist at the best of times - his “technique” seems to rely on lots of energetic thrashing and is about as ragged as his lightsaber. Deprived of said energy by his wounds, he would have been an easy opponent for any halfway competent Jedi; hell, even non-force sensitive warriors like Pre Vizla or Sabine Wren could have probably defeated him then without much effort.

Next is the throne room. This time the two of them were together up against a host on skilled but non-force sensitive guards. If memory serves, this time it is actually made clear that Kylo is contributing more to the fight than she is, and even then he’s struggling. I would argue that the Praetorian guards seem no tougher opponents then General Grievous’s Magna-guards, something that most Jedi can dispatch without much difficulty. To put that into context, she performed worse than the guy who performed worse than your average Jedi.

With the poor reflection of that fight on Kylo Ren, her subsequent “just about defeating him” on the remains of the Death Star isn’t particularly impressive, so I don’t think that can really be used as evidence for her being overpowered either. All that leaves is the battle with Palpatine on Exegol. However, of all of these, this is the one that reflects the least on her, as the force was literally pouring the power of every previous Jedi onto her - no wonder she beat him. And immediately after it happens, she dies, so I think you can argue said Force power left her after that.

Overall then, while there is potentially an argument for her being a Mary Sue, I think you could honestly put her against just about any Star Wars character known for fighting ability and she would be defeated every time. Her force powers are average, her fighting ability is average and her other skills (piloting and mechanics) are also pretty average. She’s strong in the same way Luke is strong in the Original trilogy - more by lack of competition than by any inherent remarkable-ness. You can complain about her lack of a good arc if you want, but I don’t think there’s much of a case for her being powerful enough to justify picking her from that list!