Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Rian Johnson confirmed that his Trilogy is still in production around 3 weeks ago, which I’m pleased to see as it will be a real test of his Star Wars filmmaking abilities. Besides, Disney is a megalithic giant of a company who make GW look like a Pygmy Shrew - they can afford to lose a bit of cash to experimentation

Really? I’ve heard that the Transformers films gross a large amount at the cinema, and yet most people say they are rubbish. Just because a film grosses high at the cinema, doesn’t mean that everyone who went to see it enjoyed it.

I see the vast majority of my family as casual viewers, and practically all of them think 7 was bad and saw the similarities to 4 straight away. I’ve also met others who are Original Trilogy fans yet they disliked 7 because again they saw the similarities. VII just played too safe, using a disguise of CGI and so-called ‘good acting’ to crudely mask the fact that it was merely a purist’s tribute.

The way I heard it TLJ was received just as well by critics as VII was, If not more so. In addition, as far as I can tell it is only the Luke Skywalker lovers, fan theorists and Episode VII fans that really hate against TLJ, as I’ve not met anyone who actively hates it, and you would think that if TLJ was truly hated by the vast quantity by the Star Wars fan base, I would have met at least someone who does hate it. Furthermore, even just few people can make a hell of a storm on the Internet, as even a minority can be extremely vocal.

At least I would have made a film that had a unique and original plot that’s more than just a Fanfiction. A real Star Wars fan, and a true filmmaker, wouldn’t care about making pots of money - they would care about enriching the franchise and getting it to expand across corners of the galaxy’s that we have not yet seen, not simply churning out the same old rubbish. Oh, and I wouldn’t have included Leia surviving in space or Poe disarming the Dreadnought single-handedly either. Too much escapism there that needs to be binned.

But you don’t see many people actively hate on Solo, as opposed to the Last Jedi which itself grossed more than Solo. Again, just because a film grosses high, doesn’t mean it’s good, and just because a film grosses low, doesn’t mean it’s bad.

You say Hux is an imbecile, but it wasn’t as if he did much in VII either. All he did was make a Nazi German-esque speech and give the order to fire Starkiller Base - any idiot with time to spare could do that. All he was in VII was a Tarkin remake, while in VIII at least Rian Johnson gave him a more cynical and wise-cracking personality that set him apart from Tarkin.

And we all know Rey is J.J. Abrams’ dream of a female Luke Skywalker, able to become ridiculously strong without much training purely due to pointless escapism that a purist wanted to recreate in a day and age when escapism should be dead. If she had been a character in the Prequel Trilogy she wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes against Darth Maul, Count Dooku or Darth Sidious. I reckon even General Grievous could have beaten her, if we take down J.J.’s Force field of escapism that he’s built around her, as she still knows very little about the Force and would have been easily outduelled and impaled on Grievous’ Lightsabers. Rey as a character is the real joke around here.

 

In my opinion, the reason Rian was a bad director was not because he broke the Star Wars formula. It was broken because he broke the formula for the Hero's Journey. Also, The Last Jedi was tied down with unimportant side plots and it broke continuity with the secret plan at the end of the movie.

Spoiler: My problem with the Resistance's Secret Plan

In the Star Wars continuity, hyperspace was not faster than life travel, it was popping into and out of a dimension to travel long distances quickly. The idea that Holdo is the first person in 4000 years to have the idea of weaponizing hyperspace is ridiculous killing a giant ship (plus some of it's escorts) with a small ship entering hyperspace. EVERY new innovations, someone immediately tries to weaponize.

Though I will say that Luke Skywalker was the polar opposite of his original character. He went from an optimistic family-centric man who took every risk to save a family member to being a grouchy old man that didn't hesitate to try to kill his nephew. It's fine to have a character change, but there should be a well developed character arc to show the change, or there could have been a great character arc where Rey reawakens Luke's old optimistic self.

Both the original Star Wars trilogy and the prequels were built on twists and sudden reveals. To paraphrase this insightful but profanity laden video.

Rey gives Luke his lightsaber back in a dramatic scene, the entire climax of the last movie but GOTCHA! Luke doesn't care and tosses the lightsaber away.

A TIE Fighter destroys Leia's ship and ship and sends her floating into space to die but GOTCHA! she has unbeforeseen Force powers to float to safety.

There's only one man in the universe that can disable a code for the Resitance that Finn and Rose must find but GOTCHA! a random guy in their cell can do it. Oops GOTCHA! he was a traitorous plant all along placed their by the Empire First Order even though they didn't know Finn and Rose's plan.

Holdo is an incapable commander who seems to be getting the Resistance killed but GOTCHA! she has an amazing secret plan which she wouldn't even elude to in the face of mutiny. Side note, the lesson here is that you should trust authority and obey them blindly but that is what the First Order would say. Seems like an odd moral for the Resistance which is based on standing up to bad leaders.

Snoke is a super important Force user sure to drive the remaining plots but GOTCHA! he's a nobody and he's dead.

Rey's parents suggest an exciting unknown backstory but GOTCHA! they are nobodies.

Finn is going to die in a heroic sacrifice to finally justify his character arc and give it a satisfyingly conclusion but GOTCHA! his sort of girlfriend (and the least popular character) saves him at the last second.

Kylo Ren fights Luke to the death but GOTCHA! it was a Force projection but GOTCHA AGAIN! he died anyway.



Here's a thought that came with the Force Awakens. It was a brilliant idea that Finn was an ex-Storm Trooper. Humanizing the faceless bad guys for the first time ever. But they wasted an opportunity because he never had any hesitancy or remorse when he shot scores of other Stormtroopers. He was intended as a comic relief but he was just a generic "dumb guy" comic relief. He grew up indoctrinated as a brainwashed slave trooper. There could have been a lot of opportunities for character-driven funny scenes as he tries to adapt to new cultures. Think of Drax in Guardians of the Galaxy. There was a missed opportunity to have showcase character growth from his recovery from his spinal energy. His nemesis with Captain Phasma was underutilized drama wise and arc wise. His original character was based on trying to protect Rey but they didn't create a romantic subplot from it and Rey never needed protection. Finn finally had an opportunity to protect people and sacrifice himself to save the Resistance but Rose ruined his heroic sacrifice.

One more Finn thing. To try to save a weak subplot, Rose taught Finn lessons about the horrors of cruelty, war, slavery, and animal abuse. Apart from animal abuse, Finn should know about the horrors of cruelty, war, and slavery since he is an ex-Stormtrooper. Being an ex-Stormtrooper is A REALLY GOOD IDEA. Why not use it.

This is a stretch, but one video came up with a real interesting twist, one that could make a dramatic second act ending that would NOT parallel Empire Strikes Back. So lets say Finn did heroically sacrifice himself to save the Resistance.

Meanwhile, lets Kylo Ren actually does turn Rey to the Dark Side at the end of The Last Jedi. Did the last Jedi actually fall becoming truly the last Jedi.

Episode IX, Rey finds out about her friend Finn's heroic sacrifice early in the movie which moves her on the path back to the Light Side, then she manages to pull Kylo Ren with her. BOOM! Awesome character arcs, surprising memorable twist, timeless story.

It's not a good idea to say that the creators were right and the fans were horrid for not liking it. The customer is always right (assuming what they want is legal). Businessmen should try to create what their customers want. Rian doesn't understand Star Wars. Like Michael Bay, his background is mainly advertising, Rian Johnson doesn't really understand good stories. The point of a short advertising is to catch and hold the audience's attention briefly with a unique hook. That's why TLJ had so many unique hooks to the point it was annoying.

Yeah, what he said.

That's actually another problem. Every detail of the end of Empire Strikes Back showed the narrative of rallying from a defeat. It showed Luke licking his wounds. The Rebel feet flew slowly like a defeated army retreating. The music was somber and melancholy with a tiny hint of hope in it. The optimistic and energetic Luke was now somber and seeking quiet solace.

Ending of TLJ, the Rebels just lost 99% of their members. Their ship was moving fast in hyperspace. The music was upbeat. Everyone was smiling and hugging. The lead up had Rey laughing while shooting TIE Fighters screaming "I like this!"

Everyone remaking or continuing a franchise has to stick to a very narrow path. If you deviate too much from the original material you alienate old fans. If you change too little, you fail to appeal to new plans. It's not that The Force Awakens didn't make a mistake staying too close to the material. They did err. It's just that The Last Jedi erred more. A lot more.

The best way to retroactively fix The Force Awakens is to cleverly fix the plot hole. It took the Empire 30 years to make the Death Star. It took the First Order less than 20 years to make a much larger super weapon and they were a lot younger than the Empire.

What if this was done? The old Rebellion, now the New Republic created the super weapon as a means of defense. Prince Leia, now leader of the Republic, says "This is against our values" and tries to decommission it. Perhaps this super weapon was pushed by her well meaning but hawkish son, Kylo. His mother trying to decommission his pet project is the last straw that pushes him to the Dark Side. Then the evil rebels (the First Order) manage a daring raid to capture the super weapon, they destroy the Republic homeworld and seize power during the Chaos. Kylo seizes the opportunity and betrays his parents to the First Order. Leia, barely escaping now has to reluctantly take the role of a resistance leader again now that the First Order is the new government.

The betrayal of his nephew and the failure of the new Jedi order, turns Luke into a bitter old man. Same character, but at least this way Luke's character change is well explained. Also, Rey finds out if she can save Kylo Ren, this will restore hope to Luke as well.

The above is not my idea, I lifted most of it from some Youtube reviews

 

Well perhaps it was time that the old 'Hero's Journey' storyline was retired - it has been retreaded so many times across history that it is time to move on and think of something new, indeed it has been displayed in both the Prequel Trilogy with Obi-Wan and the Original Trilogy with Luke, as well as across both of these trilogies with Anakin.

I actually felt that the ending for the Force Awakens was drawn out for too long - to see Rey just standing there with Anakin's Lightsaber and Luke just staring at her for so long made me cringe even the first time I saw it. On the other hand Luke just chucking away the Lightsaber was a big surprise and made me laugh.

I agree that this moment was awful. They had the prime opportunity to kill Leia off in that scene but no, they have to do some sort of tribute to Carrie Fisher by having her fly through the air like Superman. I can understand if it was Luke that was doing it - he is at this point very well-informed on the Jedi Arts and would easily be able to Force-pull himself to safety - but Leia, no. Leia never even did any Jedi training despite Luke's attempts to encourage her to do so. Rian evidently emulated Battlestar Galactica when having the Resistance fleet flee from the ominously-pursuing First Order, so why didn't he emulate it again when it came to people being sucked out into space (i.e. they die - BSG 2004 makes a regular occurrence of people being sucked out into space and dying)?

This bit was good in my view because DJ wasn't just another Han Solo or Lando - i.e. lovable rogue who develops a conscience - and was truly deserving of the title 'Scum and Villainy'. He cares only about himself and his money and isn't loyal to any cause - a mercenary to the core.

I actually agree with How the Last Jedi Should Have Ended here and have had Admiral Ackbar survive and take command - he was an already-established character and would have been fun to see more of. It would also have been more sad when he then decides to sacrifice himself and his ship (named after Admiral Raddus from Rogue One, no less) to take out the Supremacy.

This was arguably the case when Return of the Jedi first came out (I wasn't born at the time but before the prequels there was very little material about Palpatine - who he was and where he was from were a mystery).

I'm pleased about this because it introduces a protagonist from a new direction and not just the next successor to the Skywalker bloodline.

I am not sure if Finn's sacrifice would have destroyed the battering laser in the first place in this scene - Finn's speeder was burning up too quickly and I doubt if his impact would have any effect on the superlaser even if he did get there.

Again I thought that this was a good scene - it is a non-violent way to annoy your enemy, and thus the sort of thing a Jedi would do. We also haven't seen this in a film before so it exemplifies how powerful Luke truly is as a Jedi. Many fans see this as a suicide ritual but I think that Luke hadn't intended to die from this and he didn't realise that the effort would kill him until it was too late.

I more or less agree with this assessment. Finn is without a doubt the most original new character in the sequel trilogy but he could have been better developed.

I like this - an original twist on the story. I was actually hoping for Rey to be turned to the Dark Side in the Sequel Trilogy, and this plotline would have delivered for me.

I wasn't saying that the fans were horrid for not liking it, I'm saying that the fans are horrid for churning out so much hate for the Last Jedi and trying to pressure Disney to cancel Rian Johnson's trilogy and other media that they had in the works. If the trilogy is cancelled, I'm certainly blaming the fanbase for killing off what could have been an interesting new trilogy, not Rian Johnson. OK, if they dislike it that's fine by me, but it starts going too far when they start throwing tantrums like spoilt children just because it wasn't what they wanted. They need to grow up and express their dislike more maturely.

Try telling this to Games Workshop.

But seriously, while it would be great if companies listened to everything we said, I don't think businesses should have to submit to their customers' every beck and call like a slave. They should keep their integrity and be able to make their own decisions without having to bow down low to people who don't even work for them. I agree that they should fix things that cause their products to work poorly for obvious reasons, but for minor errors like the content, I just feel that the customer should either go without, make do or (in the case of Warhammer) convert an alternative.

As I've said before, I think it would be a more fair to let him create his own trilogy, without having to work with anyone else's material, before we start saying this.

I think this part in TLJ was intended to conjure a feeling of hope at the end of the film, as if to say "We have suffered a cataclysmic defeat, but the fight's not over yet." As for the Empire Strikes Back, the whole sombreness is highly exaggerated considering the casualties they suffered. They only lost a few platoons of infantry when they still have a good few men left, certainly enough to keep a fleet running - that's hardly what you would call a crushing defeat. Every transport escaped, and all members of the Rebel High Command survived. The only thing that's particularly frustrating from the point of view of the Rebel commander is that the Alliance have lost their base and will have to find a new one.

Star Wars doesn't need to stick to a very narrow path, and the old fans need to accept that there's more to the franchise than just killer planets, Stormtroopers and X-Wings. It doesn't hurt to include things that are new and original, far from it - I mean look at Star Wars: the Old Republic. That is an example of Star Wars material that deviates very much from the Original Trilogy yet quite a lot of the fanbase adore it.

Interesting idea and an original story, but it would have been better just to not include any more killer planet space stations in the first place. They got away with it twice in IV and VI, but they should have just left it in peace and moved on. I was thinking of my own version of the Sequel Trilogy being quite like this actually, starting off with the New Republic on top like in Episodes I-III with the Galactic Republic, with either Mon Mothma or Leia as Chancellor, and gradually they discover a terrorist plot trying to bring down the New Republic and return the old Empire. Luke is the Grand Master of his new Jedi Academy, and Leia and Han's son is a Padawan Learner as part of this new Jedi Order, and we follow him as the plot is uncovered piece by piece until open war begins. Something like this would have been much better than what we actually got, i.e. a Rebellion remake.

 

I'm still betting that it never makes it to theaters. It's just a guess on my part, but I have my fingers crossed for luck.

Yes I agree. However, the sharp financial decline we see in the Disney created SW franchise is indicative that fans are becoming disenchanted with the series. To reach Star Wars level box office numbers, a studio has to rely not only large numbers of people going out to the theaters to watch it, but multiple repeat viewings by fans (Star Wars is famous for this as die hard fans will go and watch it in the theater a second, third, fourth+ times). This where TLJ fails, as you have to enjoy the movie to watch it many times over.

First off, everyone sees the similarities between VII and IV. It's not exactly subtle and I too would have wished for it to deviate a little bit further from the original.

Second, using your family as the base line for the "casual viewer" is astronomically bias.

TLJ was very well received by critics, for what that is worth. I'd have to get into (real world) political matters to explain this one and I'd rather not.

There are many reasons why people (outside of Luke fans, fan theorists and Episode VII fans) hate TLJ. The Canto Bight sequence is pure cinema garbage. Rose is a terrible character. There are no more real villains left to finish the final installment of the trilogy. The Leia Mary Poppins scene is horrible. The entire premise of the movie is flawed. Etc. etc. etc.

I agree that you would have created a unique film, but I wonder how many people would have enjoyed it? The point is to make a film for the fans and not for the creators (especially since we are dealing with a pre-established franchise with a very devoted fan base).

A real Star Wars fan would have created a movie that would have been enjoyed by the majority of real Star Wars fans!!! And in regards to the issue of money, film making is a business. You cannot separate the two, especially when you're talking about an IP that you paid 4 billion dollars to obtain.

The fact that Solo is the first Star Wars movie to lose money is proof that people didn't like it. Up until now, Star Wars was pretty much a printing press that churned out money.

Solo's failure is also irrevocably tied to the backlash that TLJ created.

 

Brilliant stuff wise Panda!

If Disney scraps the Rian trilogy it will be because they read the market and saw that it will not reliably achieve financial success. Fans can *itch and moan about anything they want and Disney won't care as long as the money keeps rolling in.

You can blame the fans for anything you want, but why should they spend their money on something they don't like just because you do?

A very noble sentiment, but not one I would follow if my goal as a business was to make money (and if your goal as a business isn't to make money, odds are you won't be in business very long). You don't have to cater to every demand that each and every fan has (nor can you even if you tried), however, you should try to appeal to the largest number of people that you possibly can.

I trust that in the long run capitalism will work out this Disney Star Wars mess.

 

I’m just going to say this: I am a hardcore Star Wars fan and I loved The Last Jedi. This has no bearing on how much of a fan of Star Wars o the whole I am, nor would it if someone disliked it. I don’t have much of a problem if someone did dislike it, but I believe the backlash to it was vastly disproportionate. It really shows off the worst aspects of the fandom. Also, backlash against TLJ should have no effect on whether people go to see others. What on Earth are people possibly trying to achieve by boycotting things like Solo just because they didn’t agree with the direction Ryan Johnson took things? Personally I would like to see Ryan Johnson’s new trilogy - I think the higher box office performance of TFA was mainly because it was such a big deal that we were getting a NEW STAR WARS MOVIE!!! and the hype was so immense everyone and their dog had to see it. Also, with it likely having new characters, there’s less chance of backlash against it. Overall, while people have a right to their opinion, I think that a lot of the fallout from TLJ has just been childishly excessive

 

A reasonable standpoint. I wouldn't argue for anyone to like or dislike it. I myself actually liked it on first viewing, but less and less the more I've seen it (or even the more I think about it). At the end of the day, these are just my own personal feelings, mileage will vary.

In some instances I would agree. For example, no one should be harassing Kelly Marie Tran just because her character in the film is boring. Mind you that is just a small minority of people and is (sadly) pretty much the norm for current day internet culture.

However, on the flip side, the employees of Disney were also attacking the fans and pushing forth their identity politics. Like throwing fuel on the fire.

Simple... we don't like what you [Disney] are doing... if you [Disney] keep doing it we won't financially support you. If you want things to change you have put forth some sort of action. As consumers our only real recourse is how we choose to spend our money. Additionally, there are negative aspects that tie TLJ and Solo together, namely identity politics. They didn't learn the first time (TLJ) and maybe they haven't even learned after Solo, but if the fans continue to "boycott" these films, then eventually they will have to relent (or lose money).

That is partly true, but the drop off was more severe than one would expect for a sequel (or second installment). Plus the general trend is quite telling since we have seen a huge drop off from Rogue One to Solo. Of course we don't have a great deal of data, so the performance of IX will be very informative.

In any event, sequel/spin-off or not, the fact that a Star Wars movie (Solo) LOST money is a huge deal.

 

It did...

 

Not just annoying (although she/it definitely was annoying) but I don't like them thrusting their political ideologies into Star Wars movies. Especially in such an obvious and blatant fashion.

Of course L3 was just the most obvious of problems in the film. Many things didn't really make sense and the movie felt pretty flat overall. I must admit that Lando was very well played though.

I've been a huge Star Wars fan for quite a long while. You guys can attest to the volume of Star Wars content I have dumped on here (and I was very excited to go see TLJ; I even enjoyed it on first viewing). I have to admit though that I was THRILLED to see Solo crash and burn. Disney needed a wake up call and this is the only way that will happen.

 

I felt Rogue One was much better. The Vader scene alone is better than the Solo movie. The climactic scene of Solo is completely flawed. The second gambling scene between Han and Lando makes no sense.

That shall be a day long remembered!! Then we just need to figuratively put Kathleen Kenney's head on a spike and get back to business.

 

That's the power of the original Trilogy. In addition, that is how everyone always pictured Vader to be. It was a perfect scene.

It wasn't perfect but I think it was far from terrible. I thought the Tarkin CGI was better. However, if you showed 100 people the film, who had never seen any of the SW movies or characters, how many would take the CGI Leia for a real person? I've heard anecdotally that quite a few people didn't even register it and just assumed she was played by a real actor. For us Star Wars fans it is completely different though, so your gripe is valid.

 

I agree with that assessment.

 

I honestly don’t see the issue. The skin colour maybe, but other than that it seems pretty spot on to me.