AoS Sud's Thunder Lizard Rules - With Testing Now!

Give it more wounds 5 more than a dread for a creature that towers over it. Its a little insulting imo

 

I almost went to 45 wounds (thought about 50) but I wasn't sure if that was ridiculous or not... Lol I'm working on the warscroll again now, i'll share the updated one soon

 

Updated Rules:


C&C welcome and Encouraged!

 

Much better imho

 

Thanks! Any other insights? For the wounds is 45 kinda the sweet spot or do you feel too low still?

 

I'd say 45 wounds is a grand choice. D3 wounds for the tail seems fair. The table bracketing for the stomp is fair. Well done.

 

the interaction between Ward and Protection of Quetzal is interesting. different, but I like it.

I do believe this would be the first warscroll to have more unique spells than spell cast attempts. I would bump the star priest to 2 spells so that players don't have to choose between them, although forcing the choice does add a layer of intricacy and tactics.

 

Yeah, I like it, it was suggested by a fellow LO member in the discord, Etra. I think it'll work out nicely

I kind of like the intricacy and tactics part of it honestly...makes the player think about how itll effect them instead of being able to do both, but I do suppose that is something to consider

 

I feel the melee crunch makes up for the spellcasting weirdness. This thing is a moving mountain pretty much

 

This is what one of my friends said whom I talk to pretty regularly about AOS, painting, etc about:

"Sorry, I got busy, but yeah, seems really powerful, I'll try and break down some of the main concerns but by AOS rules it can do some pretty ridiculously things by itself, let alone with support. I don't know how balanced you really want it or of it's supposed to be supercharged by flavour. All the flavour and fluff seems cool though and thematic.

So like for example Titanic stomp does a flat 6 with a minimum 2 attacks, even for just the beginning that's about 6 damage non variable on average, let alone maxed out at 72 damage if you hit everything, and since damage bleeds over in AOS you could wipe out very close to 1000-1500 points of footman in a 2k point game in one hit. That's just the list theory I have looking at that.

(Hebpostes the Khorne dragon sheet) So this stat sheet costs 1200 and it has less wounds, less reliable damage, 2" longer only to move, and no flat 6 damage hits. It's white hot balefire is it's strongest weapon for damage and only gets 3 attacks with it. So I think to make it fairer it should be comparable in points. Because right now it hits like a nuclear warhead and could wipe any of my armies out by itself, let alone with 1400 additional points backing it up

Again, this is just what I'm thinking so feel free to disagree if you'd like. I'm just analyzing from my own experience"

But my response was this:

(posted Dread Saurian Warscroll)

This is the updated Dread Saurian which I think is the more comparable monster, its been updated for the current book.

35 wounds, 8 bravery, 4+ save and roughly the same move characteristic in the damage table.

Damage is semi comparable to the armoured tail damage of D6 vs 6 (though Im guessing D6 is weaker than straight 6?)

TL is supposed to be the largest and arguably strongest creature from The World That Was, so trying to reflect that while being balanced as possible

With the comparison of the new Dread which is either 510 or 420 points, does that change your mind at all? The TL being at 600 points atm.

Im not against changing things, just wanted to bring that point up"

No response yet but im sure he will in time.

Now the big thing about peoples initial reaction when seeing the waracroll is basically that theres a lot there, rhey see high damage, etc and kinda freak out. The issue here is that they forget all the other issues the player will have to deal with:

1. Her pure size: Easily targeted by both magic and ranged - she cant hide. This is leads to a related issue if that she likely wont be in charging range on her first turn. This also limits her on tables with a lot of scenery, will she even be able to move?

2. As @ILKAIN point out, she has spells, but you have to choose which to use, cant use both.

3. You can damage your own army, not just wounding but also bravery stats

4. Sarcastically Atleast she doesnt have a bite that can be buffed....

Basically whenever I post these final rules to the world im gonna do a long post reminding people of these other balancing attempts and making the player be more tactical than just a powerhouse unit. Im definitely up for changing things if proven too strong, but I also want it to be worthy of a Thunder Lizard.

So the question is, is his points valid or is she considered balance due to these other limitations?

 

Nice considering(s). Good to get as much input as posible, to balance her out in a good way

Grrr, Imrahil

 

Exactly, which is why I come here and to other trusted friends/sources first and then the Facebook masses...ugh, the masses...

 

I do need to adjust her wound table though, she drops too quickly

 

His response, Im sharing these as I feel they are fair points and add to the conversation:

"Ah I see where you got the flat 6 damage, but notice it only has 3 attacks with that weapon, your TL has 2d6 flat 6 with an exploding dice feature which can make it actually max out at 24 attacks for that one weapon of you're insanely lucky but not impossible. Youd be looking at 144 damage from the creature. I'd be comfortable saying the TL sheet you showed me is well over twice as powerful as the dread saurian and should cost more than double easily. It hands out d6 damages like candy and absolutely wrecks bravery at the same time, has access to spells and has nearly double the suite of abilities. from my perspective"

 

Here is a slightly updated Warscroll, the wounds on the damage table were adjusted. It was pointed out to me that she dropped too quickly, how does it look now?

Thanks!

 

The wounds drop is better, it really just looks like you updated the wounds and forgot to update the brackets lol. might I suggest each bracket be 9 wounds wide? it would make for even scaling decrease across all 5 brackets.

FLY and GAIT should not both exist on this Warscroll. the point of Gait is to make it so she can move without having the FLY rule. I would remove FLY and change Gait to

Puny warmbloods

"Like we matter to a beast that size" - Gaedric Halfblood, last words before being stepped on by Tlanextic, last Thunder Lizard of Ghur

The Thunder Lizard may move across units whose wounds characteristic is 9 or less and don't contain the monster keyword as long as it can complete the move and still be at least 3" away from any enemy units. for each unit traversed in this manner roll a d6, on a 2+ that unit suffers d6 mortal wounds and -1 bravery until the start of your next hero phase. Additionally any terrain pieces that are less than 6" in height are ignored by the Thunder lizard for the purposes of movement restrictions (Terrain effects such as "volcanic" still affect the Thunder lizard). doing this also makes THUNDEROUS GAIT a superfluous ability and can outright be removed from the warscroll, which will help declutter it a bit.

GOD LIKE PRESENCE mentions a range increase if the unit is a totem, but there are no indications of how you would make it a totem, or any other effects or requirements to do so. perhaps making the player make a choice between making the TL a Totem or Priest is called for? that would scale back some of the power in the model, and make it have to chose between an extended bravery buff (great for Coalesced) or a potential 5+ FNP with the prayer and spell combined. In light of this I also retract my recommendation of giving the model 2 spells. this needs a few tactical decisions to limit its scope, otherwise it could have the potential to be oppressive, even at 1400 points. essentially under the description you would add the phrasing, "a thunder lizard can be either a TOTEM or PRIEST, which must be declared upon placing the unit and affects which abilities are available to it. whichever KEYWORD is assigned to it causes it to no longer have the other."

you need to make the term "starpriest" consistent across the warscroll, the description calls the rider just a priest, and for us those are two different things. Personally to avoid confusion with the currently existing Starpreist I would call your rider a "Beast Priest" in a call back to the old schools of magic. you could then make the rider the determining factor in wether its a totem or not, by making the totem an equipment option in the description ala "some Beast Priests have totems to rally nearby troops, while others focus on delivering sermons of protection." and then use the deciding wordage from above.

Protection and Ward of quetzal should say "1 other" or "another". this specifies that those abilities CANNOT be used on the TL, and with the new rules you wouldn't want to any way. this to me is just a cleaning up issue not a functionality issue.

ITS ANGRY flavor text and ability triggers don't really line up. your flavor text indicates you want the TL to hit hard when its been provoked, but your trigger of on 6 to hit implies it landed a critical/skilled hit or got super fast in a frenzy..... nothing about this beast should ever be fast.i would change that to either " whenever a save roll for an attack targeting the Thunder lizard is a 6 the attacking unit takes 1 mortal wound after all attacks have been completed" if you want to stick with the retaliatory flavor text, or " if the unmodified hit roll for a melle attack made by this unit is a 6, inflict 1 mortal wound in addition to any other damage this attack on the targeted unit" if you want to make it like it hits harder cuz its mad... speed just doesn't fit the theme of a HULKING HUGE MONSTROSITY

and ITS ANGRY also brings out another flaw..... you specify that it excludes mount weapons... but there are NO non-mount weapons on the warscroll. the description has a rider, the skink priest. who has no attacks. the TL itself and the crew are MOUNTS by definition. you have essentially recreated the EoTG conundrum that was fixed in the FAQ

I would like to make the recommendation that you add an ability called "might as well be named" which prevents traits and artifacts from being assigned to this model... logically in the lore nothing not specifically made for a TL would fit, and it quite frankly doesn't need a game long 2+ save with its 45 wounds, which is possible for Skink generals.

I would drop the CV of your spells one each. there are no inherent casting bonuses to this model and we already have a basis for healing spells... 1 wound for a CV of 5.. adding a single point of CV per healing potential (not on itself) seems fine.

at work so this was about what I saw in-between tasks. let me know what you think.

 

All these suggests seem fair and I will likely act upon them, I do think having to choose 1 or the other orher (totem vs priest) is a good move, as example

Goos thoughts, I appreciate it

 

OK! So, after reviewing some stuff I've edited it once again to include the revisions put forth by @ILKAIN , I think this helps it really balance it self out and not allow EVERY ability to be available at the players disposal, because as pointed out that could just be over whelming. I think we're pretty close to some finished rules here to at least get some more public opinion, but i'm personally pretty happy with where the rules are at now!

Changes:

*Colossal Mass has been changed to Thunder Lizard Scales
*Thunderous Gait has been removed from abilities but transferred essentially to unit rules
*Added both Priest and Totem Keywords to make player choose certain abilities
*Small other changes

I also edited some of the fluff descriptions

Please let me know what you think of both the abilities and the fluff descriptions

Also, please let me know what Point Cost you think it should sit at! Currently I have her at 600 point cost

Thanks!

 

Rejuvenate wounds should be a 2d6 not a 2d3, it has been noted and will be edited.

 

Another Update

Changes:

*Rejuvenate Wounds was edited to reflex the proper dice roll
*It's Angry! was changed to Reactionary Defense
*Command ability renamed to "King of the Monsters" with fluff rewrite (Nod to Godzilla)
*Dropped both WoQ and RW cast value by 1 each
*Text and fluff fixes/changes respectively
*Likely to be priced at 700 point cost