8th Ed. Tactical Errors- My First Warhammer Games

[Markhaus]

I played my first game of warhammer about a month ago against the old dwarfs. I had only built enough units to field a 1500 point army and the guy said he'd take it easy. Inspired by Sleboda, this is my story:

Dwarf army:
An anvil? that is a unit? Okay, that shouldn't be too hard
a cannon... that might be a problem
a giant horde of dwarfs... there might be some heroes in there, I can't tell because all dwarfs look the same (I'm not racist, I swear!)

Lizardmen
Lords:
A slaan with wandering deliberations, soul of stone, reservoir and the staff that protects against miscasts (I was very worried about miscasts my first game)
Heroes
a skink priest with a scroll of dispel (I did not know about dwarfs yet)
Gor Rok (at the time a saurus painted white)
Special Units:
30 Temple Guard with full command, an initiative 10 magic sword
A Blastadon
Core:
25 saurus with spears 5x5 with gor rok leading
10 skink skirmishers with javelins to house my priest

For the map we randomly set things up. I got a house, a hill, and I think some woods?
He set up a river, a hill and a set of trees

Deployment:
He put his anvil behind some woods, behind a river on my right
His cannon is on a magic hill that gives it flaming hits or some craziness with the horde of dwarfs on the far left. He said this was a tactical mistake for him.
I hide my block of saurus and behind the trees in the middle figuring they could counter his horde
My skinks I put on the far left to hassle his cannon and horde
my temple guard and blastadon closer to the anvil on the right (he told me the anvil was bad news and I wanted to kill it asap)


Dwarfs 1st turn:
The anvil hits my blastadon, skinks and temple guard from ACROSS THE GODDAMN MAP! The dwarfs shuffle around. The cannon can't see anyone so the crew sadly sit around drinking.

My first turn in all of Warhammer!
Movement Phase:
I start marching forward, my saurus block rushes forward, the temple guard walk straight up to the river, the skinks towards the cannon.
Magic Phase:
Have you ever tried magic against dwarfs? Did you know I spent 375 points essentially so my temple guard are stubborn?
Nothing for shots or CC

Dwarfs 2nd Turn
The anvil kills my blastadon before the cannon ever fires. d3 wounds or something on d3 units? I may be exaggerating and the cannon may have fired the first turn? It is a bit hazy.
The cannon shoots across my temple guard unit hitting 6 ranks. The dwarf player is surprised to hear that slaan automatically make look out sir rolls (I should have let him take the hit)
The dwarfs sit down waiting for my slow units to come to them. I think the little units may be drinking and partying because they know how this is going to go...

My 2nd Turn in all of Warhammer!
My temple guard discover water in warhammer. Apparently my units are not aquatic. All movement pretty much stops for my slow guys.
My saurus surge forward... I did not understand why he put his units on the far edge of the map until now. This is a saaaaaaad day for slow units.
My skinks move forward towards the horde blocking the cannon.
Magic:
This game is making me sad. The best wizard in all of the world can't cast spells on a bunch of short bearded guys who don't even use magic.
Shooting:
Finally I get to do something! The skirmishers launch a volley at the horde! Nothing happens. I don't think I even hit them, or if I did it was 1 shot and his armor caught it.

Dwarfs:
The anvil blasts my skinks, saurus and temple guard. The cannon blasts through my temple guard again. The horde doesn't even care about the few skinks left to pursue them. They just keep SITTING THERE!

Lizardmen:
this will be the last turn since the gameshop is closing.
My lizardmen move forward into... trees. I can't reach the darn anvil.
My saurus charge his horde hoping I can do something before the game shop closes.
My skinks move so the priest can buff the saurus

Magic:
Did you know dwarfs can dispel and permanently remove the one spell your priest has, rendering him useless? I didn't. Sigh
Combat:
Saurus with Gor Rok and spears were not very effective against his horde of HW and shield dwarfs

This was a crushing defeat for me. The dude wanted to use the dwarfs one last time before the new book came out and they killed my units from across the board using runes that "are not magic". I couldn't even reach the anvil because of all the stuff slowing movement down.

End of Game Unit Analysis from a first time Warhammer player:
-Slaan: Okay, so I don't need to spend all these points to prevent miscasts. Against dwarfs this guy was 375 points of nothing.
-Priest w/ scroll: I will no longer be taking scroll of dispel now that I know some races don't cast spells and it seems really easy to dispel magic.
-Gor Rok: Love this guy. After this battle I built a custom version out of pieces from carnosaur box and greenstuff (posted in the painting section)
-Saurus: HW and shield really worked against their spears, so in the future I will try those instead.
-Temple Guard and Blastadon: Never saw combat.

 

[Markhaus]

Yes, I am posting 2 games in rapid succession. The fiance is still asleep and I have run out of shows on Netflix that I am allowed to watch without her. I still need to post another, but I don't remember all of these games as well as my first crushing defeat, so it won't be as detailed.

My second game was 2000 points against ogres.
Lizardmen:
Slaan (Lore of Life): Trying the +2 channel on 5-6 combo, reroll dispel, reservoir, shrieking blade and ironcurse icon
Priest lvl 2 heavens (I hate cannons! no more anvil rendering my unit useless!)
Gor Rok
scar veteran in the block of Temple Guard with fencing blades and gamblers armor
30 saurus with HW and FC
20 skink skirmishers
20 temple guard FC with razor standard and init 15 sword
3 terradons
1 blastadon
2 swarms

He had some small units of ogres, some had handcannons. scouts of some sort?, a giant and two casters

The map had a magic hut that increased magic considerably, a river, some trees spread around and a river.

Our mission was the diagonal map. He rolled the side with the hut and centered his forces around it. His scouts were delayed, I set up directly across from him in the open (since I built my force to counter cannons and he doesn't have any!) and Gor Rok was delayed

1st turn:
I moved my units forward, dropped a comet on his hut (irresistible force is apparently the only way to cast spells in warhammer?), I think I was close enough to pepper his units with skirmisher fire, and I know the terradons fired. No wounds from anything.
His Turn:
He tried to run away from the comet but it hit most of his units. Serious damage caused.
On his magic phase he blew up his own ogres to shoot an amber spear into my skirmishers. He saved his caster from oblivion though.
My turn, I got the charge on his unit with the heroes, my saurus advanced towards his cannoneers.
Magic phase I got pretty much all my buffs on all my units. He dispelled throne of vines with his scroll, but that left Stoneflesh and Earthblood for his crappy rolls to fail to dispel.
Shooty phase:
Skirmishers and terradons did nothing.
CC: The buffed up temple guard and scar vet with swarm support tore through his units. It was awesome and sad to demolish his leader's unit because it was already wounded from comet and miscast.

His turn he charged right through my swarm like they weren't there. I think he killed my skirmishers too. His giant kept charging and rolling snake eyes all game. It was really sad.

On my turn the game was pretty much over. My saurus charged his cannoneers, breaking them and running them down killing them. The terradons still did nothing to his poor giant who just could not charge to save the game. My scar vet and slaan were the last men standing from the horrible slaughter in the center of the board.

Defeat for Ogres
Analysis:
Slaan: Saved the game with all his buffs, I want to try Wandering again, life is just so passive
Priest: I know the comet was a one time thing, but damn did it matter in this game
Scar vet: Wow, this little shredder was amazing. Definitely keeping him, plus his model rides a carnosaur and looks awesome. Thanks to magnets he can join my TG on foot
Temple Guard: worth every penny
Saurus with HW is the way to go. Made a huge difference rolling 6's to save them
Blastadon: He sat there firing 1's and 2's all game on the single dice I threw at him. Some day maybe he will be useful.
Terradons. Forgot to drop their rocks, they did nothing all game. Maybe against cannons they will do better.

Need a break before posting my third game.

 

[hdctambien]

-Priest w/ scroll: I will no longer be taking scroll of dispel now that I know some races don't cast spells and it seems really easy to dispel magic.

Unless your regular opponent will be Dwarfs, this is the wrong conclusion to come to. Not to say you have to take a dispel scroll, some people feel that it is a crutch (same goes for the Crown of Command) but it can really save your butt when your opponent rolls in the 20's for a game changing spell and you only have 2 or 3 dispel dice (or just can't risk a big Pit of Shades to run down your entire army.

The only army that never casts spells is the Dwarfs. Every other army at least as the option for a wizard, and some armies even require one.

irresistible force is apparently the only way to cast spells in warhammer

I think it helps to think of all 6 of your magic phases as a series of hands of poker. You won't win every hand, but you don't have to. You just want to win big with the hand that you do win with.

You're probably not going to break the game with magic in the first turn or two, so use those turns to set yourself up for a big spell in a later turn. Try to lure out your opponents dispel scroll in the early turns. Figure out what spells he is afraid of and which spells he lets go through. Use that information in the later magic phases.

Wait for a magic phase that is unbalanced. You ideally want to roll doubles so you have twice as many power dice as your opponent has power dice. You can fix a near unbalanced phase to be more in your favor with the Channeling Staff combo, or the Forbidden Rod, or a Power Stone (or a combination thereof).

When you get a good magic phase, start by casting spells that you know your opponent will dispel. The Bastiladon and Ancient Stegadon bound spells are sometimes good at luring out dispel dice. A priest with the Ruby Ring works too. Anything you can throw 1 or 2 dice at but force your opponent to throw 2 or 3 dice to counter will help sway the phase in your favor.

Then throw your game breaking spell (or spells)!

My main point is, don't expect to cast a helpful spell (or any spell) in all of your magic phases. Plan on getting yourself into a position where one or two spells will be very useful and spend the early part of the game convincing your opponent that Spell X is dangerous when really Spell Y is what he should be worried about!

Sleboda likes to quote the BRB where it says something like "If you plan on the Magic Phase, then you plan to fail", which is mostly true. I think you can plan on the Magic Phase working for you at least once, but you shouldn't expect it to work for you every turn. And you have to do a little social engineering to get the most out of it.

 

[Markhaus]

You're probably not going to break the game with magic in the first turn or two, so use those turns to set yourself up for a big spell in a later turn.

I have found that wandering deliberations wins me games. Throwing out 4-5 spells each turn (some with 1-2 dice) is awesome. Spirit leech killed a giant undead dragon thing when I fought the vampires, and it went off because he spent his dispels on all my other tiny spells.

I recently fought two more battles, I ended up taking hdctambien's advice and used the dispel scroll in both. The first I was stomped horribly by empire. I thought things were going well when I killed his cannon first turn. I did not realize that the steam tank is also a cannon. And a murder machine that kills 11 saurus/temple guard a turn.
I charged and flanked his main block of knights, but its 1+ armor and ward saves (that he could reroll because he had a priest) survived for 3 rounds of my beating on them. The steam tank slaughtered my temple guard and his heroes made quick work of my slaan and scar vet.

I only killed his main block of knights after my general/bsb and most cost intensive unit was killed. I had to chameleon sneak attack his priest from behind to get rid of all that crap.

In the end I lost around 1800 points and he lost 900.

The second game I played against vampire counts and that made me sad for him. He couldn't keep up with all my tiny little spells, searing doom, spirit leech, fireball and wyssan's were attempted pretty much every round. I killed his undead dragon with spirit leech, blasted his ethereals with fireballs (I love arcane vassal), and crashed headlong into his vampire bus with my scar veteran who had a sword of hero slaying (it lived up to its name).
EDIT: I just remembered that the sword of hero slaying killed most of his non-characters , which made them break, which resulted in his hero dying. It was not a direct kill.

Apparently undead die off when their leader bites it, so we ended on the 2nd or 3rd turn.

Wandering deliberations, scroll of dispel, channeling two dice at 5-6 and the ability that lets you reroll failed dispels are definitely permanent additions when I can have them.

They say don't count on magic, but with a slaan that has to be my strategy.

 

[Sleboda]

I did not realize that the steam tank is also a cannon.

=> Just a curiosity question - Did he have the model or was it a proxy of some sort?

They say don't count on magic, but with a slaan that has to be my strategy.

=> It doesn't have to be, but I get your point - it's tempting to lean on magic when you spend so many points on it. How often are you using a single die to cast? I'm almost never brave enough to use fewer than 3 dice other than for bound spells and the final spell a caster tosses since any roll of 1 or 2 on the dice fails to cast and shuts down the caster for the rest of the phase. It's just too big a risk, especially since, as you say, you are really trying to count on those spells working in groups.

 

[Markhaus]

Did he have the model or was it a proxy of some sort?

I think it was the actual model. It basically looked like an armored carriage with two stubby little turrets. I just wasn't thinking.

It's just too big a risk, especially since, as you say, you are really trying to count on those spells working in groups.

Opponents can dispel with dice or a scroll, I never count on any single spell, I try to inundate them with too many to do anything about.
This is not what I always do, but generally:
1-7= 1 dice, I save these for later in the phase because 1 in 3 fail
8-10= 2 dice, this is almost all of my spells with WD
11-13= 3 dice, I will also use 3 dice on important spells that cost less if I can spare 3 dice that round (Wyssan's!)
14-16= 4 dice. I generally will not cast these spells for fear of miscast
17+= 5-6 dice. Something must have gone horribly wrong, time to try for miscast to blow up part of their army.

The slaan has +4 to cast, average on each dice is 3.5, so this give me a little leeway. I have a skink priest and blastadon to use any leftover dice.

Low winds give 3-5 dice, that is 3 spells, two of which they won't dispel
Average roll for winds should give 6-8 dice, that can give you 3-4 spells, still 2 they can't dispel
High Winds 9-12 dice, 4 spells minimum, generally the last spell or two will be on 1 die.

This has also gotten spells through against my dwarf friend in the game where I beat him.

 

[Putzfrau]

You slann is pretty heavy for a sub 2k point game.

Looks like in the games you have 3 disciplines and magic armor/weapons on him. IMO that's too much.

I like channel staff + discipline combo and either high magic discipline or signature discipline. Thats it, with maybe a BSB on him depending on what my other heroes are.

I think running with no miscast protection in temple guard is going to make you lean towards the Signature discipline. Low cost of spells makes it harder to blow up your own TG unit with a miscast.

 

[Markhaus]

Actually I was up to 2,500 points for the empire, vampire counts and now I just played a demons of chaos.
My army:
Lords:
Slann w/ all lore signatures, reroll dispel, 2 dice channel, bsb discipline banner, channeling staff
Old Blood with dragonbane helm, sword of might, light armor and shield
Heroes:
Gor Rok (can't see running without this guy)
Skink priest lvl 1 beasts dispel scroll
Skink chief on terradon with magic shield dawnstone javelin light armor
Special
21 temple guard FC with razor banner,(slaan and OB in this unit)
Blastadon
5 chamo skink
5 chamo skink
Stegadon with giant bow
Core
35 saurus FC
10 skink
10 skink
10 skink
Demons:
Khorne army with blood letters with heroes, guys riding rhinos, a big two headed vulture, and a skull cannon.
He had some tzeentch casters too and several dogsl things (they died pretty fast)

I hid my Steg and Blastadon behind trees, tried my scouts and rider flanking to the right.
The battle started off with demons casting several spells that i countered then blasting the cannon into the saurus, killing 6 guys
On my turn I rolled crap for winds, and he dispelled them all. My chamo skinks killed his tzeentch guys and my other skinks ran from his cavalry. No hits with my bow.
His horde of demons failed a charge, while several dogs smashed into my troops from different sides. He got off some nasty spells buffing his units, but the cannon misfired and my temple guard killed the dogs while the saurus worked on the other dogs. My turn was basically cleaning up dogs and moving skinks behind his lines.
His horde reached my TG and he challenged. My champion accepted his fate gracefully, dying for the greater good. Three turns of grinding against each other with him rerollong 1's to hit, but miasma and wyssans making up for his buffs. Ultimately my skinks hunted down and killed his caster, while my OB with his ward 2+ (I hope all enemies use fire) slowly worked on his main combat hero. The stegadon smashed into his flank on the 2nd turn I think, and it was such a mess we had no idea who would win.

In the end the demons were completely obliterated, while I only lost most of my TG and Saurus

 

[Markhaus]

I am now at 11 games, 7 won and 4 lost, I have not been keeping up on this like I had hoped (work), but I will sum up the game of Warhammer fantasy with a LM army as I see it.

My basic army revolves around a Slann with +2 channel rolling on 5-6 and rerollable dispels.
I will sum up at the end my thoughts on units, unless said otherwise I run Gor Rok in saurus block, scar vet in temple guard slann bunker, everything else switches.

1st- 1500 vs Dwarf Army: with an anvil and cannons behind a river, a forest and horde of dwarves with great weapons. Things did not go well for the lizardmen. Slann running life, blastadon dies quick.
2nd- 1500 vs Ogre: Blasted most of his army with a comet early, win lizarmen, slann running life, blastadon disappoints
3rd- 2000 Dwarf Rematch: No river to hide behind, I win because I smashed his cannons quick and his dwarves could not stand to the might of Wyssan's buffed temple guard and saurus block. Slann running Wandering
4th- 2500 vs Demons: Poor demons, the army looks fun with all its wacky antics, but does not seem like they win much. Slann running wandering (really liking this now)
5th- 2500 vs Empire: Wow, what a massacre. Steam tanks kill 10-14 saurus and/or temple guard during its MOVE phase. Even with Wyssan's my temple guard can't crack 1+armor knights. Beginning to think monsters are worthless. Still happy with wandering deliberations
6th- 2500 vs Vampire Counts- Iceshard Blizzard + Spirit Leech= dead terrorgeist, Also softened up the vampire leader to die horribly by losing and falling apart to unstable. Blastadon did something! Killed a troop of ethereals (but my arcane vassal could just throw slann fire at it...)
7th- 2000 league game vs high elves- stupid "have to kill every model in a unit" rule. Ran a carnosaur and solo slann, which was odd, will have to run it more to get the hang. Dropped several comets on his elves and slaughtered them in CC but since he had 5 left (from a horde of 40) and 3 left from 30 it was a draw. Luckily I did all the side bonus points and won the mission!
8th- 2000 league game vs khorne demons- scattered deployment saw my units (skirmishers and temple guard) hitting his cannons without any help from his other units. poor demons
9th- 2000 league game vs vampire counts- this was a good, down to the last, everything both of us had fight. I won with the help of wandering deliberations. I gave up the blastadon two games before this one and still have not noticed it is gone.
10th- 2500 vs empire- Why do I play empire? I kitted my army out to hunt them, no big monsters, wyssan's, wandering deliberations, armor piercing banner. With Searing Doom and my newly built cowboy I managed to actually kill the steam tank (it was one of the few units I actually did kill though...)
11th- 2000 league game vs dark elves (actually an army of undead proxies for dark elves)- Hard to comment on dark elves since my slann jumped into the warp first spell of the first turn, he also managed to damage my carnosaur and rider on his way out. This was a massacre.

Individual Unit Thoughts:
Skink skirmishers- these guys are okay in my hands, but I do not really know how skink swarms are so great. LD 6 means they run off the table every time I have them flee.
Saurus block with Gor Rok: Solid core, nothing special about them. I will probably drop Gor Rok to get a cheaper, better cold one rider

Blastadon: what a let down. Monster's stink, and +1 initiative is worthless to an army with such low initiative. I may take him in the future if I drop WD
Terradons- I did not mention these guys even though they were in almost every battle because they have done squat. They have been cut and will now adorn my shelves
Carnosaur- Good for a laugh (for opponent) as a 220 point unit dies in combat before it gets to attack.
Stegadon- Not bad, but not worth the points. Maybe try ancient?
Temple Guard- the star players of the lizardmen game. They have had their slann drop to lvl 1 in 3 games and still been buffed by his wyssan's to cause some carnage.
Chamo Skinks- Only had these guys for a few games, but they are AWESOME. Do not leave home without these guys.
Jungle Swarms- I like these guys mostly because of my paint job on them (they are from the blastadon, not the crap GW sells as swarms), but they aren't the best unit.
Scar Veteran- He needs a cold one. Armor 2+ is not all that and a bag of potato chips.
Slann- The MVP of the army. He dispels everything but irresistible force. I have run life (didn't like it), High Magic (didn't like spending 35 pts, but may try just having 4 of the 8 next time) and wandering deliberations. I love WD, but I think I might run regular lores for awhile. Yes he drops to lvl 1 a LOT, and yes there was that one time he was sucked into the warp first turn, but overall he has been a very valuable base for my army.

Funny thing is I had not planned to play one, but another player was selling his for dirt cheap and I couldn't say no.

 

[Sleboda]

Thanks, Markhaus. I like the summary of all the games together like that. Nice to see the progression.

 

[Markhaus]

Monster List:
Lord
Ghost Slann with High Magic, Reservoir, Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence, channeling staff, obsidian pendant
Heroes
Scar Vet on carnosaur
Heavens Skink with scroll
Core
2 groups of 10 skirmishers
1 group of 30 saurus
Rare
Ancient Stegadon
Special
Blastadon
2 groups of 5 chamo skinks

Opponent was a grudge match with VC I played earlier. He increased his hexwraiths to 10, had 2 groups of skeletons (1 for combat and 1 as a necromancer bunker), two groups of mounted undead of some sort, a vampire lord and a couple packs of wolves.

For the mission we started 9 inches from the center, so things got going quickly

I got to go first, I started by taking a tower with skinks and moving forces up. My skink tried to thunderbolt but failed to cast on 4 dice (1's and 2's). My slann blasted his hexwraiths with 4d6 magic missile and slaughtered half of them. Shooting saw some wolves die but the blowpipes and most of my skirmishers did nothing.

On his turn he summoned a group of zombies, I dispelled his hexwraiths coming back, he murdered the skinks in the tower with skeletons (he was happy his skeletons got to kill something) and plowed his wolves into my chamo skinks but lost several in the course. He made several other failed charges.

2nd turn I charged my saurus into his zombies, charged my blastadon into his zombies. Slann and carnosaur moved around people, my skink skirmishers ran off the table from his hex wraiths last charge. I managed to cast an improved hand of glory on the saurus giving them +3 hit and init in the combat, which made a huge difference later. Blasted the hex wraiths down to 2 units. Giant blowpipes are as useful as the giant bow, which is to say they are not. Close combat saw the death of the zombies, but the wolves and chamo skinks kept fighting.

He charged his cavalry with hero into my stegadon and his other cavalry into my saurus. Close combat saw my stegadon drop down to 1 wound but he managed to wound someone. My saurus killed many of his blood knights. My chamo skinks killed his wolves.

3rd turn: I kept maneuvering around to try to get my carnosaur able to charge a flank. Charged my blastadon into the knights on my saurus. Spell phase I healed up my stegadon 3 wounds! failed a walk on my carnosaur. CC saw the death of his knights and further wounding of my stegadon.

The rest of his army circled mine, the skeletons charged my blastadon. During magic he dropped 3 levels and lost his spells summoning a line of zombies to block my slann in. Uh oh. CC saw the death of my stegadon, my blastadon and his skeletons overran into my chamo skinks because I had poor placement.

My fourth and Final turn. My poor slann tried to run away from all the armies chasing him, but he failed to get off his Walk (1's and 2's on 6 dice, I was actually hoping to get a miscast to wound some of his troops before I lost). My 20+ saurus ran away from 4 guys on horses and were killed.

His turn I forfeit the game as my slann disappeared to a charge of skeletons and he had most of his army left still. Poor carnosaur did nothing all game (so the same as when he actually gets into combat ZING)

Thoughts:
In my hands monsters suck badly. In 12 games the best things monsters have done is 1) a stegadon killed a group of devil dogs that weren't a threat and 2) a blastadon blasted a group of hexwraiths that I could have hit with my slann's MM instead. With crappy initiative, crappy weapon skill, and very few attacks, monsters die quickly and without causing casualties.

Ethereal slann is a waste of 60 points. His movement is not good enough to avoid anything, and if something gets a charge on him to hold him somewhere another unit can flank him and kill him.

Chamo skinks are well worth the piddling amount of points. When they don't kill anything, "Oh well, they are only 65 for 5" but when they do kill things "Ha! 65 points just murdered your 150 pt cannon (or in this case a pack of angry wolves).

When a friend said Gor Rok was overpowered because he gave my unit stubborn I laughed at him. Now I understand that stubborn is a requirement in this game. My saurus ran away very quickly when they lost combat by only a couple points.