1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. This is just a notice to inform you that we will move the forum to a new server sometime during the next few weeks. The actual process should not last more than a few hours; during this process, we will disable replying and creating new posts. As soon as we know the date for the transfer, we will update with more information.
    Dismiss Notice

AoS Tactics for other Armies

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Killer Angel, Jan 6, 2016.

  1. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    733
    Trophy Points:
    93
    We have some unspoken agreements at our shop, one of which is "if Greasus bribes you, you accept. Greasus' bribes are reality-warping."
     
  2. StealthKnightSteg
    Razordon

    StealthKnightSteg Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    271
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Used my Stormcast Eternals fast attack tactic to good use in the Storm the Walls battleplan to drop my troops right under his nose against some dwarfs
     
  3. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    733
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Interesting take. My choice of strategy for the Stormcast is far more defensive, so I'd rather be on the walls.
     
  4. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

    Messages:
    16,242
    Likes Received:
    34,902
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Bainbow, I have a request and a question...

    For the request, would you mind to emphasize the "name of the army" in your two previous analysis for Empire and Bretonnia?, It would be easier to recognize 'em when you scroll the thread. Tnx. :)


    Now, the question (regardin' the Empire)

    Against many armies, this build can be powerfully effective... but IMO it lacks some range (16" the handgunners and 30" the mortar) given that it works staying in defence.
    How do you deal with superior ranges not so uncommon), summoning, and similar? For example, if a Slann summon a trio of sallies at 12" and they blast your handgunners, the key for victory of your army is pretty much doomed. How do you plan to face a couple of Skull cannon of Khorne (rather then 20 Pink Horrors or 5 exalted flamers)?
     
  5. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    733
    Trophy Points:
    93
    In that situation, gradually marching towards the enemy to get them in range would be the answer, with the mortar offering support. However with defensive armies such as this, ranged armies tend to have a real advantage so Wanderers (which is a better name for Wood Elves IMO) and such would have a huge advantage. You can actually observe something of a rock-paper-scissors thing going on, defensive<ranged<light-melee<defensive. But with only one or two skullcannons, it's much easier to just weather the attacks while you kill the main army.
     
  6. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

    Messages:
    16,242
    Likes Received:
    34,902
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What makes Seraphon strong, is that they are, basically, rock-paper-scissors all-in-one, like a swiss army knife.
    Some races are good rock, some other are excellent scissors, but lizzies can cover all the bases in a very efficient way, and anyway, if they're facing a rock, they can summon loads of paper. That's one of the reasons why people think they're broken.
    But, staying in topic, FINALLY I've put in practice what I was preaching.

    Today, I've faced my "classic" opponent (Ogre), an army that with Seraphon I usually steamroll. We agreed to swap our armies: he played my Seraphon (the build I'm actually using, with Slann, Thunderquake Starhost and support from Chama skinks and ripperdactyls, calling Kroak with the EotG), while I've used a list similar to the one detailed in the previous page (reduced to minimal terms, due to points' cost of the system we're using, fielding the Beastclaw Avalanche formation and 3 butchers).

    I was even unlucky (a roll of 1 with the Thundertusk's Blast of Frost, thus failing to struck at full force the Slann in the second turn :confused:), and in the end Seraphon won... but only 40 to 39 points.
    Judging from my opponent's surprise, in seeing the performance of his army, I think I've made my point. :)


    (BTW, guys, don't stop with your analysis... I'm still waiting for those Gobbos ;))
     
  7. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    733
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Greenskins are actually proving to be a challenge because there's so many of them. Like normally if somebody said something similar like "I want a Skink-only army" or what-not then it'd be easy, but I think it's telling when the Goblins alone have 3 battalions. There's just so much information to sift through.

    I'll do it, though. But I may have to do two because I can't choose which is stronger between Forest Goblins and Night Goblins.
     
  8. StealthKnightSteg
    Razordon

    StealthKnightSteg Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    271
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Do the forest goblins first then, seen to much night gobbo armies in 8th!
     
  9. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    733
    Trophy Points:
    93
    That'd be because Night Goblins are the best gobbos in lore, design, and entertainment value and I'll fight anyone who disagrees.
    But yeah, Forest Goblins it is. I hope you like spiders and mortal wounds. Again, we'll use my place's standard 125 Wounds for the army size.

    Big dilemma with this one was deciding if it was worth taking the Spiderfang Venom Mob battalion for this army. On the one hand, its Embodiment of the Spider God rule is probably the single best buff for gobbos in the entire army and for Forest Gobbos we already wanted an Arachnarok spider, a bunch of Spider Riders, and a Forest Goblin Boss anyway, but three Arachnaroks? That's an expensive pick, not only in terms of draining the wound limit but also in actual monetary costs as each one costs about £36, so that's quite expensive. However, each Arachnarok only costs about £4 more than the alternative, filling up those free wounds with regular riders, so really you're only spending around £8 extra to get Embodiment of the Spider God. Furthermore, the rule is that good that in larger games such as a 125 Wound game, it almost feels like a must-have. So I'd say go for the Battalion.

    1 Goblin Big Boss on Gigantic Spider (6)
    3 Arachnarok Spiders w/ Catchweb Spidershrines (48)
    38 Forest Goblin Spider Riders [3 units] (124)

    Honestly I don't think I've ever designed an army that's so simple to build yet would be so visually and practically impressive. Seems little at first glance, but remembering that each Arachnarok is an individual monster carrying a full 2-spell Wizard each, the power is clear. Not to mention the image of three titanic spiders blasting along the battlefield with a downright insane amount of smaller wolf-sized spiders scurrying between the giants' legs like a tide is an undeniably impressive sight, plus the Boss' gigantic spider in the centre really serving to complete this image.
    But in addition to that, there's some genuine practicality to this army that, unlike basically every other themed army I've ever designed, gives this army a real power in the meta-game that to be honest, I would fear. (Mainly because the Spider's strategy completely and perfectly counters my own.) This army is all about Mortal Wounds. While the spiders may be frail compared to most cavalry with their weak 5+ save, their ability to cause a Mortal Wound instantly on a Hit roll of 6 with their spider fangs is quite powerful, especially as each spider gets to make 2 attacks with their fangs each. Factor in the Arachnarok riders' Gift of the Spider God and each Mortal Wound caused by these fangs doubles. Finally, the Blessing of the Spider God from the Big Boss gives an AoE buff that causes these Mortal Wounds to occur on a 5+ instead of a roll of 6, doubling the Mortal Wound rate. With this, and assuming you split your Riders into equal sized units of 13 (with one unit being only 12, but ignore that one) and all 13 Spiders manage to pile in to attack, you're looking at an average of 17 Mortal Wounds per unit before normal Wound rolls. Not to mention that those normal Wound rolls get a +1 modifier from the Battalion's Venom Surge rule, bringing even more pain. In addition to these Mortal Wounds from the bites, each shaman can cast 2 spells, so after ripping off a Gift of the Spider God, it may be effective to have them all launch a basic Arcane Bolt at whatever unit you want to fuck up today, resulting in a further 3D3 Moral Wounds, easy to do with Bolt's Casting Value being only 5. Oh and speaking of Casting Values, Gift of the Spider God only has a Casting Value of 4! I only know one other spell that's so easy to cast and it's not nearly as game-breaking as this, (it's our Curse of Fates, by the way.)
    It's also worth mentioning Embodiment of the Spider God, it is the main reason to take this Battalion rather than just dropping one or two of the Arachnaroks for more Spider Riders. With this rule, any unit within 8" of any Arachnarok becomes immune to Battleshock. Holy sheet, Unbreakable Goblins!? Goblins are meant to be cowards, these guys are running a Bravery of 4 for Pete's Sake! But nope, now any hope your enemy may have of using Battleshock to cripple your army at a range has been utterly dashed because your Goblins are just that fearless. Ouch.
    Worth noting, your Riders have a movement of 8" making them very fast at crossing the board, but when they're still making their way over and you're up against somebody shooting at you while you try to make it, it may be worthwhile to give these little guys a Mystic Shield. With Gobbo Shields too, you'll be rocking a respectable 4+ Save, enough to see you to your enemy's line where the Mortal Wound-fest can begin.
    Finally, the major problem a lot of high-number armies face is the issue of terrain, large units and monsters tend to get hindered by terrain blocking their path. But wait, literally everything in this army can just walk over any terrain piece as if it were not there because of their Wall Crawler ability. Meaning that your opponent can't try to bottleneck you to lessen the number of attacks you can get in, a common defensive strategy that I've used a lot. Naturally this should all highlight that between your ability to ignore terrain and your ability to totally ignore armour, this is a godly counter to defensive armies. (Such as my Temple Guard army or the Empire army I designed here a little while back.)

    Strong against: Literally any army that has high armour as its main strength, almost all defensive armies fall into this category. Fast movement and Battleshock immunity gives them a strength against slippery ranged armies like Skinks and Wanderers too.

    Weak Against: People who can block Mortal Wounds such as Chaos Warriors or Nurgle daemons, fast Glass Cannon armies may also have a distinct advantage as they die en masse anyway so your own damage will have little effect, meanwhile they would take advantage of your relative frailty and smash you first. Anti-magic armies may also prove to be an issue as blocking your Gift of the Spider God and Arcane Bolts can prove to be a problem, though you still have six spells so you'll likely get some off. Beastmen may be particularly good at this as they can do a real number on your spellcasting, the right builds being able to net you up to a -5 to Casting rolls as early as Turn 1, plus the fact that they're the perfect Glass Cannon army that I already mentioned would ruin your day.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
  10. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

    Messages:
    16,242
    Likes Received:
    34,902
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Even with those weaknessess, its a really impressive army (both visually and mechanically).
    I'm sure a friend of mine could field it with ease (i remember his 3 Arachnarok Spiders in 8th), but actually he's fixed with his Khorne Bloodbound.
    I'll ask him to bring it at the table, because frankly it would be Amazing. That tide of mortal wounds can shatter almost everything.

    and now, forgive me but I cannot resist:
    I cannot erase from my mind the image of this little, dirty and smelly goblin, pointing his finger at your unit, shouting in a shrill "shame! shame on you! your cause is NOT noble, you cowards!" :p
     
    Bainbow likes this.
  11. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    733
    Trophy Points:
    93
    This army does actually worry me because my two competetive armies, Stormcast and Lizards, are both highly defensive with emphasis on high armour. So a Mortal Wound spam would wreck me.
     
  12. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    733
    Trophy Points:
    93
    ...Just noticed the typo. DAMN IT!
     
  13. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,344
    Likes Received:
    14,490
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Make sure you do Night goblins next as I want to mix both in together, might even add some orcs yet.
     
  14. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,344
    Likes Received:
    14,490
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Now I want a Forest goblin army, I have 10 spider riders to go with my night gobbos and thought nah I won't bother but now I'm like yeah I want more!

    Damn you @Bainbow ;)

    Get the Nighty's done please
     
    StealthKnightSteg likes this.
  15. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,344
    Likes Received:
    14,490
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Without any discount the full army would cost you £211.50p from GW which is not that bad really now I just have to sell Skarbrand, 10 Wrathmongers, 20 Bloodwarriors etc etc

    We need a Swap shop!
     
  16. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    733
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Yeah full armies aren't cheap. I highly doubt anyone would get all of the models in an army I design at once, myself included.
     
  17. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,344
    Likes Received:
    14,490
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What ever you design for Seraphon I think I have the models just got some Saurus Cavalry to paint then I have the Starbeast Constellation fully painted :) not that I will ever be able to field it :(
     
  18. StealthKnightSteg
    Razordon

    StealthKnightSteg Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    271
    Trophy Points:
    63
    How many models / wounds is that? I'm willing to field my Empire against that (8th ed 5/6k points) or my Stormcast when I complete my target of the Warrior Chamber (if that is anything the size of your Constellation)

    Edit: and ofcourse if either of us is near the other..
     
  19. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,344
    Likes Received:
    14,490
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's 198 models so god knows the wound count and I have only ever played against my son so you would destroy me, are you UK based?

    I'm going to goggle the wound count.
     
  20. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    733
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Ever find yourself in Manchester and I'll play against that army. Should be fun.
     
    Crowsfoot likes this.

Share This Page