I 'd say it should work nicely. Your hitters have a really good move, so they 'll choose their fights, and the cannons' nest cannot be ignored and it will lure the enemy into range of your charges. For the battle wizard, I would probably pick the amber one: +1 to wound is really nice, considering the amount of attacks you’ll deliver on a charge, and it also helps the demigryph, improving the damage of the razor-sharp talons.
I started compiling the Google doc, please find it here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/170NvSmnJjiWSZQy_7I7I6WT1rDtOQTGGSK75HfO90ew/edit?usp=sharing I might do some styling/structure improvements in the upcoming week! Any feedback would be much appreciated!
Woah, lately I've been trampled by life... so little time to do the real important things, like posting here. Nice one, it's certainly a handy document. Keep improving it! Bainbow, any news about Vampire Counts? Did life trampled also you?
Honestly, no. I've already wrote up a Vampire Counts army, did it ages ago when I said I would. I've neglected spending the time posting it because it's just so... well, boring to me. Vampires are one of my favourite factions lore-wise but looking at all the competitive builds I can see, they're just very monotonous and simple. They feel like an expensive beginner army, they're very easy to use, they make use of very simple and spelled-out synergies that require very little thought, and they don't really make use of any of that delicious lore. Which is a shame because I love the undead, I'm working on an Order Undead Bretonnia army right now made up of kit-bashed Bretonnians and Vampires to get a bunch of fallen heroes, it's very fun. But the competitive Vampire armies can pretty much be summed up as "Nagash+Zombies" with some casting roll buffs, it's dull.
I see your point. And that undead Bretonnia seems totally cool. Well, so the next objective is the chaos armies? I've started to work on Tzeentch, they'll be my next one review.
It's gonna be so cool. A mounted Vampire on a Nightmare made from a Brettonian Lord with some kit-basing, a mounted Wight King with an Infernal Standard from the mounted Paladin BSB, Grave Guard with the banners and shields from Men-At-Arms! I'm excited! And yeah, Chaos looks great for our next one up. I'll get to work on the Bloodbound army I promised.
Good start, but might bring both Empire parts together? (also typo in first Empire section in the table of contents -> startegy)
Thanks! I'll be sure to keep it updated with army lists posted in this thread. I also started recreating the armies in the scrollbuilder, for those that use it (see Dwarfs). Are there truly no competitive alternatives to Nagash+Zombies? I'm thinking a Ghoul King on Terrorgheist, with the Charnel Pit Carrion battalion. Konrad von Cartstein or Heinrich Kemmler seems like a good base to build around as well (with Mortis Engine, Corpse Cart, etc), for a magic-heavy (not necessarily summoning). Another recurring theme I've seen is "if bravery, then...", but there is no way for Death to lower an opponent's Bravery, apart from Skull Catapults. Take it with a grain of salt though; I love thinking of army builds on paper, but I rarely have time to play a game to test it out (or buy/assamble an army); needless to say, I don't have much experience in Age of Sigmar either. Thanks for your feedback! I have re-arranged the document a bit; organised everything alphabetically under Grand Alliances. Oh, and most importantly, I fixed that typo
Well there are some, but they all tend to have massive flaws or weaknesses that a clever player can exploit. There's little in the way of adaptability for those, and while I do love the more casual aspect of the game where you can play themed armies such as my two upcoming undead armies that are undead Brets and an army of Ghouls I'm calling the Shia LaSquad (I'll be playing Actual Cannibal Shia LaBeouf as I play that army,) the nature of this thread leads me to try to find the most optimal builds and strategies instead of the most fun ones. Which I think is a problem with the Vampires, they can be one of the most fun armies to play, but to maximise their competitive side you need to sacrifice that fun in my opinion.
Well I think that this thread is also if not mostly intended to get theme's going with in the synergies.. If they are competitive or not. I didn't even think about competitiveness of the Empire thundering hooves until half way typing it up that I thought hmm this could actually work.. I also think it's a nice idea to get to work with some of the battalion warscrolls more to get the themes going from there. Also because there is some movement by players/organiser of events to bring battalion scrolls up to certain wounds.
Well this thread was made as a reaction to people saying that Seraphon are OP, to prove that everyone's just as OP. Which is why I've been focusing on the maximum power rather than the maximum fun. Though granted some of those builds that are max power have also been max fun, the Forest Goblins in particular.
I decided to dream up a Vampire Counts list myself. I'll be looking forward to your feedback! I have also added it to the Google doc. Introduction I only played a few games, but I love to spend my time creating army lists on paper. Anyway, I wanted to do a Vampire Counts list that could be competitive (at least on paper), without relying on Nagash (and preferably not relying on heavy summoning). Army List Konrad von Carstein - 5 Wounds Heinrich Kemmler - 10 Wounds 4x Necromancer - 30 Wounds 1x Wight King - 35 Wounds 4x Morghast Archai - 59 Wounds 1x Mortis Engine - 71 Wounds 1x Corpse Cart - 77 Wounds 43x Zombies - 125 Wounds Strategy Okay, so maybe it’s not the most exciting thing to play, but I think it would do well in a competitive environment. The idea is to keep your heroes in the middle of your zombie swarm, while everyone shambles forward. I’ll describe each unit’s function in your army, and then continue with the actual strategy. Konrad von Carstein Konrad is your General, he’s there to bring some pain in melee, but mostly for his Entourage of the Damned. It allows you to re-roll failed casting attempts of all your wizards with the NECROMANCER keyword. Heinrich Kemmler, the Lichemaster Heinrich’s purpose here is to pose a threat magic-wise. However, his Lichemaster ability will keep him alive, using the Morghast Archais to soak the damage. You can always use Heinrich’s Invigorate ability to heal them back up. He can heal each Death model 1 Wound per turn, and cast something else as well. Necromancers You’ll use your small coven of Necromancers to buff your “zombie rape train” - as people like to call it. You’ll be casting Mystic Shields on those rotting corpses, or blast Arcane Bolts when you can. If your zombie horde is dwindling, use them to Summon Zombies to strengthen your zombie shield. At the start of battle, you may want to Summon Bat Swarms close to your enemy ranged units as well. Wight King The Wight King will be hanging out with Heinrich & co. waving his Infernal Standard. Since all your units are packed, he won’t be planting his standard - the 9” bubble should be sufficient, allowing you to still shamble forward. Oh right, what that bubble does? It has a chance to keep your models alive. It’s a slim chance, 1 out of 6, but it can save your more expensive units, and will slow down your opponent’s attempts at hacking at your zombies. Morghast Archai Okay, so these bad guys will be protecting your fragile casters. Whenever one of your necromancers, or Heinrich, suffers a wound, one of the Morghast Archai should take the hit instead. They are a little bit more sturdy (and more expendable) than Necromancers - and their armor gives them a chance to prevent mortal wounds (which they get while covering for a Necro). With 3 3-dmg attacks at rend-2 they’re not too shabby in combat either. Oh, and they make your casts easier to succeed! Mortis Engine The Mortis Engine is mostly in here because I love the model. But its rules are pretty good as well; an AoE attack at 9”, easier casting for you and harder casting for your opponents, as well as chances of mortal wounds in close combat. Then there is its Reliquary, which allows you once to AoE heal D3 wounds to all DEATH units, AND deal D3 mortal wounds to all non-DEATH units - useful when you’re being overrun. Corpse Cart The Corpse Cart has two purposes; it makes it easier for your Zombies to hit, and makes it easier for your casters to cast. Alternatively, you could make it harder for your opponents to cast by slapping a Balefire Brazier on there. I think the Unholy Lodestone’s +1 to casting roll is more beneficial in this set-up, though. Zombies All aboard the Zombie Rape Train - or so they call it. These zombies should be fielded in bulk, and when I say bulk, I do mean bulk. Never allow them to get lower than 30 models. With 30+ models close by a Corpse Cart, these guys hit at 2+, and wound at a 3+. Now, consider that a single Necromancer can make them pile in and attack twice. That’s a terrifying amount of damage - but that isn’t good enough; for every kill there is a small chance for another zombie under your control. Now consider that you have a Standard Bearer, returning D6 dead zombies back to unlife in your hero phase. These guys will swarm your enemies, and can be used as (literal) meat shields for your Necromancers. Bat Swarms (Summoned) Your greatest weakness are probably ranged oriented armies, but guess what, you can summon. I prefer to see summoning as a ways to counter certain strategies, rather than a strategy on its own. So, Bat Swarms it is - why? Simple; they reduce your opponent’s chances to hit during the shooting phase. They don’t hit hard, they don’t hit a lot, but if they hit, they regenerate their full health. Use them to harass your opponent’s archers. Note that when summoned (on a mere 5+... which is almost an auto-cast with all your buffs) they come in a unit of 3; that is 15 wounds for your opponent to cut through. Terrorgheist (Summoned) I’m not a big fan of it, but we’re talking competitive here - only summon a Terrorgheist if your opponent is bringing cheese, or as an “if all else fails”. It has a casting value of 10, which is steep, but it should be doable by your coven. Once the cast is successful, put the Terrorgheist close to your opponent’s ranged units, and shriek and shred at them with all you’ve got - it should relieve your coven of some stress. How to use it Your army is slow, you know it, and your opponent knows it. Basically, I would make a square with all my units, and shamble forward to my enemy. The heroes should be in the middle, surrounded by the zombied, with a morghast at each corner. The Mortis Engine and Corpse Cart should be added in as well. Just make sure you have at least 1 line of zombies around each of your units; they are your literal meat shield. You’re very weak against fast and/or ranged armies, so use your magic to deal with that - summon to counter your counters. Playing with necromancers without practising necromancy at all is a bit silly.
Glad you joined the fray! Rearding your list, I don't know too much VC, so I'll take a look at their battlescrolls, but at a first glance it seems nice.
Here we are! let's start with daemons. Even if you can mix fairly well Daemons and Warrior of Chaos, I think it’s funnier (and more satisfying, from a certain pov) to design armies from a single battletome, so my daemons are going to stand on their own. DAEMONS OF CHAOS - TZEENTCH …sweet chaos. Your essence is eternal change, with no law to bind your whims. And we rejoice the blessing of the only One, between all the Dark Gods, that can bear the title of “God of Change”. Because only Tzeentch embodies the real essence of Chaos. Daemons of Tzeentch breath magic. Their main magic users are amongst the strongest wizards in all AoS, and only guys like Nagash, Lord Kroak and a Slaan Starmaster can have an edge on a direct confront… but if you consider their army as a whole, they’re by far the most powerful, magic-wise. If this wasn’t enough, they shoot like crazy. Their CC is not bad but cannot compare to the one of the other daemonic armies, so the winning keys are magic and shooting. As further premise, I would say that Tzeentch daemons, despite the fact that they should be masters in subterfuge and elaborated schemes, in combat are almost embarrassingly simple and brutal… however, a beginner must be careful, because you need to adjust your tactic, depending on the enemy’s army. Brief Units’ analysis (aka the ones I will use in the list) Heroes Kairos Fateweaver: in combat he’s dangerous, however, its strength lies in magic. He can cast 2 spells, but to cast (and dispel) he changes the lowest roll into the highest rolled one. And he can add 2 to the result when casting a spell. His own spell, Gift of Change, is cast with a 8 (basically, Kairos only need to roll at least one 3 with two dices), inflicts d6 mortal wounds and (if you kill a model) you immediately field a Chaos Spawn (WoC battlescroll) within 3” from the damaged unit. As last thing, he can change the result of a dice into the number he wants (once in the game, but SO funny and useful!) Lord of Change: as Kairos, he can cast 2 spells, changing the lowest roll into the highest one. He can learn any spell that he successfully dispelled, and his command ability is to add +1 to cast / dispel within 18” to other tzeentch wizards. His own spell, Infernal Gateway, is cast with a 7 (thus requiring to roll at least a 3 with two dices) and, if the Lord is at full health, it should inflict 6 mortal wounds. Herald of Tzeentch: he’s got a missile weap with 18” range, and he’s a wizard (his spell needs a 9 to be cast, and inflicts d6 mortal wounds). Once per game, you can roll 3 dices instead of 2, and every time you roll 9+ to cast a spell, you can cast a second spell (that’s why you will keep the herald near the Lord of Change). Herald on disc / on chariot: nice move and nice CC, but their spells are less reliable than the previous ones. (You can work on them, but that’s not the objective of my list) Blue scribes: excellent fly move (disc). Their spell is cast at 4, and let other tzeentch wizards within 18”, to reroll failed “to cast” rolls. Their abilities are excellent: on a 4+, they copy on a scroll each spell cast by a wizard within 18”, and they can cast it on a roll of 2+ on a d6 (and can be dispelled only with a 9+). The Changeling: I love it… you can hide it in the opponent’s army: if not revealed, you can halve the movement of a target unit within 9”. When you need to reveal it, it’s a wizard that knows any spell known by another wizard within 9”. In combat can attack using the enemy’s weapon profile. Troops Pink horrors: 10 or more models, missile weap. at 18” (+4/+4) and a unit can cast one spell in hero phase! (and with a +1 bonus if near a horror hero. With the Lord of Change, they’ll have a +2). On a 1 on battleshock tests, you add d6 models to the unit. They are summoned with a 6 (and with a 9, they come in 20, with bonus to “to hit” to their magical missile flames. Exalted flamers: any number of models, 4 wounds each, move 9” fly. Their missile weap. (billowing warpflames) is crazy: range 18”, 6 attacks (4+/3+/d3 dam), and as if this wasn’t enough, you roll a d6 for each unit that was wounded: with 1, they heal d3, but with 4+ they suffers additional d3 mortal wounds (capricious warpflames). Flamers of tzeentch: 3+ models for each unit, move 9” fly. They are basically the exalted flamers toned down: 2 wounds each, 3 attacks with warpflames: range 18”, (4+/3+/d3 dam), and capricious warpflames. Burning chariots of tzeentch: exalted flamers with move 14” fly. Army List & strategy (125 wounds) We’ll use the formation of Daemon cohort of tzeentch (1 Lord of Change, 1 herald, 3 pink horrors units, 1 unit of flamers or burning chariots): each wizard (pink horrors included) can cast one additional spell, and if a unit is slain, roll a dice: on a 6 the whole unit comes back! Heroes (total 50 wounds): Kairos (10), Lord of change (10), two Heralds (5+5), the blue scribes (5), three changeling (5+5+5). Troops (total 74 wounds) 3 units of 12 pink horrors (36 wounds); 1 unit of 5 flamers of Tzeentch (10 wounds), 2 units of Exalted flamers, for a total of 4 models (16 wounds), 2 burning chariots (12 wounds). The tactic is simple: drown your enemy in fire and magic. Magic: given the various bonuses to cast that you will have, the low rolls that becomes high and the rerolls for failed castings, you’re basically 100% sure that you will be able to always cast successfully. Kairos will deal 1d3 and 1d6, the Lord 1d3 and 6, each herald 1d6 and 1d3, the scribes can copy a d6 (the Gift of Change, so you also summon a Chaos Spawn), the pink horrors will grant 3d3. The total is 7d3+4d6+6… we’re talking about 30 mortal wounds, plus a couple of free summon of Chaos spawn. And we’re not counting the Changelings, the additional spells granted by the formation, and the possibility to summon further units... Fire: all your troops will shoot fire at 18”, and 52 of their attacks can deliver d3 damage each (plus the additional damage by capricious warpflames). One of the problem is that you (obviously) cast spells at 18”, so this means you have to move “near” enemy’s range, and cast in the following turn, thus risking counterattacks before your next hero phase. But this can be easily avoided. You will form a line of shooters (horrors, flamers, horrors, exalted flamer, horrors), and behind them you will keep your casters. The chariots and another unit of exalted flamers, will form the mobile wings of your army, while the Changeling will be placed amongst the enemy (and the way you’ll use ‘em, depends on the opponent’s army). The idea is to move into range and shoot as much fire as you can with your front line, hitting also by the sides with the chariots; the casters will stay behind, to blast with magical hurricanes enemy’s troops that will try to attack in CC your shooters, so your wizards must stay behind the horrors /flamers, but must threaten all the area in front of the shooters. Are you facing quick armies, that rely on mass attacks that can overrun your defences? Or are you facing defensive armies, with missile attacks with a superior range? Or another magic force? You will adapt, forcing the opponent to play at your terms. A quick and / or numerous army, as forest goblin spiderfang, or Ogre’s Avalanche, or empire’s knights, could overrun you… but they will be slowed down by the Changelings. With a halved move, there’s no way you will be charged before delivering a storm of fire (and also magic by the horrors), and if something survives and impacts your shooters, you’ll have magic from the casters behind, and summons for other pink horrors / flamers. The Changeling’s ability, will stop also those flyers that could simply bypass your first line. Nasty magic users, as a Slann or even Lord Kroak, that play defensively, can hit you at distance and can summon? You’re free to copy their spells and reveal the changelings, killing the wizard/s. Wouldn’t it be fun, to cast THREE celestial deliverances at point blank, at the heart of an eternal starhost? An army with superior range, such Empire’s gunline or Dwarfs? Again, move the chariots and shoot (move 14” and shoot 18”, will let you hit at 32”: only some warmachines have a longer range), and reveal the changelings: even if they get killed, you will have erased the enemy’s shooters, leaving only those units that don’t pose a problem. Weaknesses: you will be vulnerable to some ambushes (Chama skinks, Ripperdactyls, Bugman’s rangers, some Tomb Kings units, and similar) that can target the rear casters. Luckily, the damage they can deal is relatively limited, and your army lacks a clear focus… really, if you lose Kairos, that would be annoying, but you can still do whatever you want, with a Lord of Change + 2 heralds + blue scribes. As a final note: Kairos’ Oracle of Eternity (the ability to change the result of a dice) is HUGE. Yeah, it’s once per game, but how many possibilities… just to name a few: that d6 mortal wounds is a 6. You can summon a unit with the powered number (20 horrors instead of 10). That charge of the enemy in that critical moment? Failed! That unit of leadbelchers just rolled a 6 on battleshock… or better, Lord Kroak rolled a 6 on battleshock. A Skink Sterseer uses Cosmic Herald… and you enjoy 6 insight re-rolls! The possibilities are endless, 'cause We are Chaos, and for every new battle, we will show the universe a new, amazing wonder. I really don't know how we can be on the same boat of those crude bloodthirsters...
Is anyone doing a death list? I'd really like to see what it would look like now the new book is out and GW have gutted a lot of the stuff.
Great stuff! I've added it to the document! I'm probably going to pick up the book this weekend. But I think my list on this page (page 6) is still applicable.
Nice and NASTY Tzeentch sum up! I would like to add the Stormcast Lightning Strike here, that could potentially devastate your casters especially if he could get the Knight Azyros in place / Knight-Vexillor (re-roll charges) with them. As they can/ will be hard hitters Battleshock test on single model?